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Started by tabicat at 12-07-2007 3:17 PM. Topic has 5474 replies.
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   12-07-2007, 3:17 PM
Re: Emailed Xbox Div. Pres.
 cesium salami wrote:
So, my launch console lasted two years, and has finally died.  I've gotten a new console in and it works great,

Is the new console a replacement from Microsoft, or did you just buy a new one?  If MS replaced it, they should do a license transfer.  If you don't want to deal with Microsoft, there are third-party repair companies that will fix your Xbox 360, so that you won't need a license transfer.
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   12-07-2007, 3:46 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games
 tabicat wrote:
That's why I suggest you never buy any Xbox Originals.  Besides, you can buy used and sometimes new versions of these games cheaper on Amazon.com, and then you'll have a physical disc that doesn't have any DRM problems.  When you tire of the game, you can sell them or trade them in.  You can't do that with Xbox Originals.

Yup, agreed.

Saw Crimson Skies at my local GameStop for $2.99 used yesterday.  They had several copies.  Why pay $15 for a DRM version when you can pay $2.99 for a non-DRM disc based version?
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   12-07-2007, 3:57 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games
 Tokeio wrote:
Saw Crimson Skies at my local GameStop for $2.99 used yesterday.  They had several copies.  Why pay $15 for a DRM version when you can pay $2.99 for a non-DRM disc based version?

It gets better than that.  Because of Xbox Originals, the manuals for these games are now available as free downloads.  So you can buy the ultra-cheap used copies that don't have manuals, and just download the manual for free! Hahahaha!
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   12-07-2007, 5:17 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games
 tabicat wrote:
 Tokeio wrote:
Saw Crimson Skies at my local GameStop for $2.99 used yesterday.  They had several copies.  Why pay $15 for a DRM version when you can pay $2.99 for a non-DRM disc based version?

It gets better than that.  Because of Xbox Originals, the manuals for these games are now available as free downloads.  So you can buy the ultra-cheap used copies that don't have manuals, and just download the manual for free! Hahahaha!
Good tips there!
Wish: A snapshot feature
Helping to lower XBLA conversion rates.
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   12-07-2007, 5:21 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games

Just got off from a lengthy phone call with someone from the Xbox Escalation team at the Microsoft corporate office and I have a bucketload of information for you.

As we know, the initial solution to the DRM problem was to issue Microsoft Points codes to match the amount spent on premium content and rebuy it on a different account. He told me that after some time, Microsoft performed an audit about this process and found that 90% of customers abused the process by using their points to buy different content than what was originally purchased. Following this audit, the refund of Microsoft Points was immediately stopped and apparently, Xbox Support no longer have the possibility to do this.

The current solution to perform license transfer is now in place. It is a very lengthy process, which requires someone to manually go through the whole download history and identify every item that has been purchased and do the license transfer one by one. My understanding is that the delays are due to lack of manpower due to the huge amount of such transfers that are in the queue to be processed.

I commented that it should not be such a lengthy process for a database update, and that they internally should have a way to do this license transfer more quickly for whoever performs the actual work. He agreed and said that they were working on some tools to help them speed up the license transfers.

He told me that officially, in all internal documentation, this process is supposed to take 30 days and that's why Xbox Support give us this estimate. He is well aware that this deadline is not being met, but understandibly he is not in position to promise any more accurate turnaround time for a license transfer to be performed.

He said that once the license transfer is in the queue, there is not much than can be done to get an update on it, and having Xbox Support reissue another request will not do any good.

He mentioned that this is a high profile issue at Microsoft, they are aware of it, and that just two weeks ago he was personally in a meeting that was almost entirely devoted to the DRM license transfer issues. That was good to hear.

I asked some specific technical questions about the license transfer:

- Free or temporarily free content like Carcassonne and items acquired through a promotion code (that don't show up in your billing history) should be transferred correctly along with all your other purchases as long as they are listed in your Download History.

- In the case where a license transfer is performed to a console serial number, but the content is never actually redownloaded to that console because the console fails before it can be done, I asked if this would prevent another license transfer to a third console serial number. He said that doesn't see any reason why this should affect the transfer to the third console and that the license transfer could be done from any (valid) serial number in the database regardless of whether the content was downloaded to that console or not.

He reminded me that if a console is upgraded to a different model (for ex. premium to elite), the license transfer will NOT be performed. Since that isn't my case, I did not discuss this issue further.

About the inability for Xbox Support to contact the license department directly, he said that it's unfortunate but I can understand that this can happen in a big company. He also said that Xbox Support would never give a customer a direct contact to the Escalation department, even if you call 40 times. They just can't do it. (I got the contact information from another user in this thread).

He stated that the license transfer is normally supposed to be done according to the process when a console is sent for repair. I mentioned that some people have had success by attaching a written reminder to their broken console when sending it back. He said that he'd never heard that, but it couldn't hurt and he certainly would recommend to do it.

About my specific license transfer request, he said that he spoke with someone from the licensing department before contacting me, and he was told that a bunch of transfers should be going through next week. He suggested that I wait one week until then before sending back my #2 console for repair, so that the pending #1 to #2 transfer could be done before the normal #2 to #3 transfer at the repair center. But after considering all the information, I said I'll send my console back right away. The transfer could still go through before the repair is processed, and I'll attach some information to my console about my license transfers to be done.

All being said, I'm rather satisfied with the conversation and I have faith that my license transfer will be performed, eventually. Other than getting me more information, I don't think that my contact with the Escalation department will get this done any faster than if I just let the request follow its due course in the queue. But at least I'll have some follow up.

I told him about all the bad publicity that this issue is generating, and suggested that if they ever got those tools working to perform the transfers quicker, they should mention it to the community, and also that they should comment about the issue and how they are addressing it on this thread. He said that he understands the frustration, but there are some things that can be commented on publicly, and some that can't...

I hope I'm not disclosing anything I shouldn't with this post, but I just believe that sharing this information will help alleviate some of our concerns and make the wait more bearable for us. Information is a good thing.


360 #1: Oct 5 '06-Sep 5 '07 RRoD
360 #2: Oct 2 '07-Dec 3 '07 DVD
360 #3: Dec 13 '07-?
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   12-07-2007, 5:35 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games

First off, thanks for the information. It seems like it could all be valid. However, I still have a hard time with the length of time it takes and the length of time these "tools" have taken to "build."

 pata70 wrote:

The current solution to perform license transfer is now in place. It is a very lengthy process, which requires someone to manually go through the whole download history and identify every item that has been purchased and do the license transfer one by one. My understanding is that the delays are due to lack of manpower due to the huge amount of such transfers that are in the queue to be processed.

In MySQL, find and replace can be done pretty simply: update [table_name] set [field_name] = replace([field_name], '[string_to_find]', '[string_to_replace]');. I'm fairly certain that a similar function has to exist in MS SQL or whatever they're using, so writing a "tool" shouldn't be that hard. A Visual Basic Newbie could probably write one in a few minutes.

Though their inability to do so would go a long way towards explaining the Vista development process.... ;-)


Erik J. Barzeski
nslog.com
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   12-07-2007, 5:35 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games
Hey Pata70,

Good to hear you got through to the escalation department.  My experience was about the same, so at least there is some consistency at that level.

However what is funny or sad, depending on how you look at it, even though I changed SKUs (I went from Core to Halo 3) out of no fault of my own they told me they wouldn't do the transfer.  After calling them back at their super secret number, I explained again that I had choice but to upgrade at the store because the Core SKU was no longer being sold.  I waited another week for a resolution and was shot down again.

Here's the funny part... my license transfer went through.  All my content works fine.  So even though they told me they wouldn't do it, twice... I got my license transfer after all.

Hopefully they'll provide an end user tool for this at some point.  Even Major Nelson told me that when I spoke with him several weeks ago.
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   12-07-2007, 5:36 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games
pata70: thanks for this awesome post.  Would you be willing to post it also to this thread: http://forums.xbox.com/16012653/ShowPost.aspx
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   12-07-2007, 5:45 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games
Wow, great post. It helps to know these things. This is kind of what I assumed so I haven't made any follow-up calls for a few weeks now. (its been about a month and a half) I'll give it another 3 weeks or so before I call. I just try a redownload every few days, and then pull the plug on my ethernet...
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   12-07-2007, 5:49 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games

 Tokeio wrote:
Hey Pata70,

Good to hear you got through to the escalation department.  My experience was about the same, so at least there is some consistency at that level.

However what is funny or sad, depending on how you look at it, even though I changed SKUs (I went from Core to Halo 3) out of no fault of my own they told me they wouldn't do the transfer.  After calling them back at their super secret number, I explained again that I had choice but to upgrade at the store because the Core SKU was no longer being sold.  I waited another week for a resolution and was shot down again.

Here's the funny part... my license transfer went through.  All my content works fine.  So even though they told me they wouldn't do it, twice... I got my license transfer after all.

Hopefully they'll provide an end user tool for this at some point.  Even Major Nelson told me that when I spoke with him several weeks ago.

The fact that you changed SKUs and was able to get your content transferred is proof that Microsoft is just blowing smoke,  how retarded of a policy to not allow a transfer to a different SKU, especially if you upgrade, what company in their right mind wants to discourage an upgrade, f*ckin retarded!!!!!!


How can I say I'm great when theres not another greater?
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   12-07-2007, 5:53 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games

I am just down on this whole thing today.  Feeling sorry for myself I guess.

Still waiting since August 22, 2007.

Anyone been waiting longer?  I have a REALLY hard time believing that this is all done on a first come first serve basis.  FIFO my pa-toot-y!!

Maybe they are assigned on a FIFO basis but then they sit in individual queues collecting dust!


DO NOT BUY ANY CONTENT ON YOUR 360 until you read
this
first!
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   12-07-2007, 6:01 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games
 RiPPn wrote:
what company in their right mind wants to discourage an upgrade

I believe Microsoft still loses money on every Xbox 360 sold, or at least makes very little money, so upgrading your Xbox 360 will cost Microsoft.  You're not a new customer, and you're unlikely to buy more games (since the higher-end Xboxes can't do more than the lower-end ones), so why should Microsoft encourage upgrading?
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   12-07-2007, 7:53 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games
 tabicat wrote:
 RiPPn wrote:
what company in their right mind wants to discourage an upgrade

I believe Microsoft still loses money on every Xbox 360 sold, or at least makes very little money, so upgrading your Xbox 360 will cost Microsoft.  You're not a new customer, and you're unlikely to buy more games (since the higher-end Xboxes can't do more than the lower-end ones), so why should Microsoft encourage upgrading?

Actually I'd say that's some what misguided.  The newer machines can use HDMI.  Lots of people don't have HDTVs that support VGA but do support HDMI.  This right there would allow people to take full advantage of the HD-DVD drive and get better quality of their existing games than component.  Also, if this existing customer upgraded to the Elite they'd get a much larger hard drive.  Thus enabling them to buy those insanely large Xbox Original titles or movies from the marketplace.

In my case, I was forced into an upgrade.  I could not get a Core from the store because they had none in store because MS stopped making them.  And since my exchange happened in October, the Arcade model was NOT released in the stores yet (Arcade was sold on Nov. 2nd) so they only had the ugly Halo 3 model.  Yeah, quite the upgrade...  I already had a hard drive, 4 wireless controllers, the wireless adapter, camera, yada, yada.  I had to pay $100 more for the ugly green beast.  The green hard drive goes unused.  I now have 5 wireless controllers... yippie...

Seriously, MS has NO IDEA what they're doing on the DRM issue.  They really don't have any tried and true policies, it's all smoke and mirrors.

Even with my problem fixed I'm not buying a single retail or digital piece of content until either Sony goes belly up or Microsoft implements an end user DRM re-licensing tool.  At this rate, it will have to be the former until I buy another thing from the Xbox 360 platform again.
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   12-07-2007, 8:55 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games
Well i've just got off the phone to costumer care again and would you believe it? the issue has still not been resolved!

I've got to wait another 48hours for a response which now makes it 144hours for a response off MS (if they do indeed ring back by sunday)!
I did however speak to a clear english speaking gentleman that cleared up a few issues!! well not really but anyway here's what he said:

1/ "We know its a massive issue and i get frequent calls about it."

2/ "The escillation team are looking into solving the problem and this is the reason why it has taken so long to contact people" In which i replied with "WHAT 2 YEARS???""" the "first post about this issue on the xbox forums dates almost two years ago!" he replied with "Oh! dose it?" hah

3/ Which i found interesting was that he couldn't see how any of the procedures inwhich they are given to solve this problem could work? try re-downloading them etc....

I then directed him to this thread telling him that a thread about an issue with over 3 thousand posts and almost two years old can't be good for there marketplace image..

I then ranted the following
"I for one have boycotted the service and so will many more (do it) until this issue is resolved, and that MS should be giving costumers more if they experience problems with there 360 instead of taking back features and giving them back an inferior machine (because it can't play its games offline).

That my friend is where microsofts legal protection will come un-stuck no matter what they managed to fit into there terms and conditions paragraph before purchase, and thats how trading standards will see it.

So i am therefore telling you to report this to your senior (never ever call anyone superior to yourself) as legal issues are right at your door and after the whole RRoD bad press MS can't afford anymore?"

In which he replied

"Yeah i know, i will get them to ring you back in 48 hours" hahahahahahah yeah right matey!




PSN & LIVE:Sircoynie
If you're an engineer like me?join the IET at www.theiet.org
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   12-07-2007, 9:03 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games
 Tokeio wrote:
Actually I'd say that's some what misguided.  The newer machines can use HDMI.  Lots of people don't have HDTVs that support VGA but do support HDMI.

The only time this would be a problem is if you have an old Xbox 360 and an TV, both of which support component or VGA.  Then you decide to upgrade your TV, but you foolishly purchase a new TV that doesn't support VGA.  If that happens, then it means you intentionally purchased new TV that is incompatible with your existing setup.
 Tokeio wrote:
This right there would allow people to take full advantage of the HD-DVD drive and get better quality of their existing games than component.

Not really.  There is virtually no difference between component/VGA and HDMI from the Xbox.  In fact, VGA is superior to HDMI in one respect: the Xbox 360 will upsample 480 DVD movies to 720p/1080p for you.  I do this, and my DVDs look much better on my Xbox 360 than they do on my standard DVD player.  And my HD-DVDs look great through the VGA cable to my 720p TV.
 Tokeio wrote:
Also, if this existing customer upgraded to the Elite they'd get a much larger hard drive.  Thus enabling them to buy those insanely large Xbox Original titles or movies from the marketplace.

You can buy the 120GB hard drive separately, and it comes with a transfer cable.
 Tokeio wrote:
In my case, I was forced into an upgrade.  I could not get a Core from the store because they had none in store because MS stopped making them.  And since my exchange happened in October, the Arcade model was NOT released in the stores yet (Arcade was sold on Nov. 2nd) so they only had the ugly Halo 3 model.

Why didn't you send your console to Microsoft to be repaired?
 Tokeio wrote:
I now have 5 wireless controllers... yippie...

You could sell some of these on eBay/Amazon and recoup some of your costs.
 Tokeio wrote:
Seriously, MS has NO IDEA what they're doing on the DRM issue.  They really don't have any tried and true policies, it's all smoke and mirrors.

That, I can agree with.  The post from pata70, though, gives me some home that at least some people in MS are doing the right thing.
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   12-07-2007, 9:20 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games
You're kidding right about component/VGA vs HDMI?  Right? HDMI upscales regular DVDs... you knew that, right?  I'll agree that VGA looks good in some cases, but the difference between VGA and HDMI is really dependant on your TV.  Some TVs have horrible VGA support and don't allow you to calibrate the signal.

Now, are you like working for MS or something?  Why would I send my console to MS when I can walk into the retailer from which I bought my console and get a new one on the spot.  It's called a retailer warranty.  Apparently though they aren't a good idea to purchase if you own a c r a p Box 360.  That I'll agree with.

It's not the point about re-couping costs, it's about the fact that MS could give a s h i t less about me as a consumer.  They'd rather jerk me around than fix my problem.  Oh wait, they fixed it AFTER jerking me around and still told me they wouldn't fix it.

Yup, that's top notch customer service right there ladies and gentlemen.

Tabicat, I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop with the Jekyll and Hyde posts.  You're either on board with the DRM issues or not.  You can't have it both ways.
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   12-07-2007, 9:45 PM
Re: Emailed Xbox Div. Pres.

 tabicat wrote:
 cesium salami wrote:
So, my launch console lasted two years, and has finally died.  I've gotten a new console in and it works great,

Is the new console a replacement from Microsoft, or did you just buy a new one?  If MS replaced it, they should do a license transfer.  If you don't want to deal with Microsoft, there are third-party repair companies that will fix your Xbox 360, so that you won't need a license transfer.

Apparently I made the "mistake" of upgrading.  I am sending my old console off for repair, but I've been waiting a week now just for a box to show up.  I wanted a 360 with HDMI, and I am going to give away my older 360 once it comes back from MS repair. 

So if MS will do a license transfer on a repaired box, why not on an upgraded box, and invalidate my gamertag with the older 360's SN?  That way my games and downloads would still only be available on one console.  This whole process is senseless.  I was told by the CSR last night that I had basically "thrown my money away".  There is absolutely no way I will ever by any downloadable content until this is resolved.  I am not going to pay for MS's faulty consoles and their lack of foresight.

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   12-07-2007, 9:47 PM
Re: Cant play full versions of Arcade Games
Tabicat, I think your post should have started with the line, "This is how J Allard would respond to all of your complaints" Wink [;)]
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   12-07-2007, 9:48 PM
Re: Emailed Xbox Div. Pres.
 cesium salami wrote:

So if MS will do a license transfer on a repaired box, why not on an upgraded box, and invalidate my gamertag with the older 360's SN?  That way my games and downloads would still only be available on one console.  This whole process is senseless.  I was told by the CSR last night that I had basically "thrown my money away".  There is absolutely no way I will ever by any downloadable content until this is resolved.  I am not going to pay for MS's faulty consoles and their lack of foresight.


It's completely senseless and this is where a class action lawsuit would come in very handy.  I have a hard time believing that after two years MS will really go out of their way and fix all of these DRM issues.  I've seen zero proof of any action being taken on their part.  The conversations I've had with employees at various levels inside Microsoft about this issue have said things are getting done.  Right. 

Show me the money Larry, show me the money.
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   12-07-2007, 10:37 PM
Re: Emailed Xbox Div. Pres.
As I have said in the past, we're aware that the current DRM is not as flexible as some would like. For many it's just fine, but we know there are some folks that are not happy. The right people are aware of this thread and how some of you feel. I’ll follow up with them again though. And yes, if you send your Xbox 360 back to the official repair center, the console you receive back should have all your licenses transferred.  Now, for obvious reasons, since you mention lawsuit I can no longer comment on this.




Major Nelson

Xbox Live Director of Programming

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This posting is provided 'as is' with no warranties, and confers no rights.
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   12-07-2007, 11:10 PM
Re: Emailed Xbox Div. Pres.
 Major Nelson wrote:
As I have said in the past, we're aware that the current DRM is not as flexible as some would like. For many it's just fine, but we know there are some folks that are not happy. The right people are aware of this thread and how some of you feel. I’ll follow up with them again though. And yes, if you send your Xbox 360 back to the official repair center, the console you receive back should have all your licenses transferred.  Now, for obvious reasons, since you mention lawsuit I can no longer comment on this.
Not as flexible as some would like? Are you serious?

I'm on my third console due to repairs, and the 65 arcade games I've bought (not to mention downloadable content) do not work. Flexible my a s s. The DRM is broken plain and simple. This is such b u l l s h i t!
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   12-07-2007, 11:15 PM
Re: Emailed Xbox Div. Pres.
 georgedamonkey wrote:
 Major Nelson wrote:
As I have said in the past, we're aware that the current DRM is not as flexible as some would like. For many it's just fine, but we know there are some folks that are not happy. The right people are aware of this thread and how some of you feel. I’ll follow up with them again though. And yes, if you send your Xbox 360 back to the official repair center, the console you receive back should have all your licenses transferred.  Now, for obvious reasons, since you mention lawsuit I can no longer comment on this.
Not as flexible as some would like? Are you serious?

I'm on my third console due to repairs, and the 65 arcade games I've bought (not to mention downloadable content) do not work. Flexible my a s s. The DRM is broken plain and simple. This is such b u l l s h i t!
Not to mention the countless hours on the phone with tech support. Or being accused of lying. If I should receive my console back with all licenses transferred, explain to me why every time I call noone knows what's going on. Most of the people I've talked to have no idea what I'm talking about.

I normally don't wish ill on others, but I sincerely hope that you have your console die. And if it does, pretend you're not an employee at Microsoft and see how that goes for you.
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   12-07-2007, 11:16 PM
Re: Emailed Xbox Div. Pres.
 Major Nelson wrote:
As I have said in the past, we're aware that the current DRM is not as flexible as some would like. For many it's just fine, but we know there are some folks that are not happy. The right people are aware of this thread and how some of you feel. I’ll follow up with them again though. And yes, if you send your Xbox 360 back to the official repair center, the console you receive back should have all your licenses transferred.  Now, for obvious reasons, since you mention lawsuit I can no longer comment on this.

Larry, the word lawsuit has been mentioned at least two dozen times if not more in this thread of 109 pages.  Now if that was just a late Friday afternoon joke, I should be LOL'ing now.

The problem is while "some" people are unhappy, what about those customers who have no idea about what happened to their content?  While someone may have internet access and Gold service, they certainly aren't going to be posting on this message board that Grandma can't play Bejeweled 2 on her "GrandaPWNS" account anymore.

We're asking for an official statement about when this will be resolved.  As documented in this thread, e