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Started by Threefish10 at 03-07-2007 1:53 PM. Topic has 2982 replies.
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   03-07-2007, 1:53 PM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
 Gloom Trooper wrote:

Hey what's with the Southpark in HD game, I click on it and all I get is a message that says "No Data".

 Jimmy T Smile [:)]



I think it's just an Episode of Southpark in HD, i saw some people talking about it in another thread, they were talking about which Ep it was but as i don't care for SP i wasn't paying attention

don't need a helmet, got a hard, hard head
don't need a bandage, there's too much...blood...
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   03-08-2007, 2:12 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

I'm up for some R6 Vegas, the coop stuff is actually pretty good, non-competitive fun, as the maps aren't as linear as in previous games so you can split up through the game and see who picks off the most baddies. There're quite a few multiplayer achievements in Vegas that aren't ranked. Also up for another Halo 2 event, especially if we get the numbers this time. I do play the arcadies sometimes - poker, billiards, UNO, backgammon. A Dad's Army Poker Night would be great, I think it's 8 players? Also, if anyone wants to swap some Pinata accessories... 


Reduce your carbon (and gastrointestinal) emissions.
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   03-08-2007, 2:35 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
YEah I'll play Vages, and I'm up for Halo this time I'll try to actually stay home.

Anyone getting GRAW2??
Live like a dog, If u can't eat or hump it **** on it & walk away
Dad'sArmy
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   03-08-2007, 7:44 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

I played the GRAW2 demo yesterday and it got me back in the zone!

 

Gears just totally ruined all my patients for playing the slower shooters, but the GRAW2 demo was awesome.It got me back into the zone.

I'm interested in trying out a few different games online, like Battlefield,PDZ, F.E.A.R , Splinter Cell DA.

 

I was playing some ranked last week on Gears and was fully put off it. Some of those dorks/nerds are so infuriating. In fact I ditched my controller in anger at one point, now it is held together with gaffer tape.(the insides are very robust!)

Would be good to earn achievements on player mode. Winning might actually mean something!


Xbox in a coffin.

DadsArmy
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   03-08-2007, 8:39 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

New game for me...............and the winner is............da da dah!

BURNOUT

Just had a quick go online and I'm in love, its  so Friggin' Awesome and fast and easy to hold a grudge and then its REVENGE TIME

See you on the race track.

P.S. We're still on for sat night Gears


A far superior product to Mortien
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   03-08-2007, 10:53 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
Love Burnout with 2 cautionary notes..... 1 The ea servers are notoriously unreliable and 2 i have never yet worked out how to invite people into a game. If you have worked it out let me know.Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]
Live In The Moment Or You'll Never Be Free
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   03-09-2007, 1:34 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

Morning All,

 

What is this I see. GOW is no longer the IT game for Dads Army..?? Surprise [:O]

Meh it had to happen, I have to agree that it is more for recreational and social bantering than hardcore competition. Though if what Cliffy says comes to fruition it will just give me more reason to just keep on playing the player matches instead of ranked.

 

Purchased Rainbow 6 Vegas & GRAW 2 yesterday. Have not tried them as yet, though R6V has a hint of familiarity with SWAT 4 (PC).

 

Speaking of PC I havn't played my rig in a while. Such happy memories of FEAR Online Sad [:(].

 

 

 

 


 Homer Simpson wrote:
I gave my love a chicken, it had no bones. Mmmmm Chicken!
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   03-09-2007, 4:11 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

FEAR ,Vegas, Burnout, and Battlefield are our best options I think.

Especially as I have them.

 I'm Gonna work out how to invite Sir Fish on burnout so we can race and smash the crap out of each other.

Hillman10 is up for a battlefield game so if anyones got it too we can set up a game to see how it runs.

As for Gears I had alot of fun ( and laughs - those Mum jokes..........) on it last night so I think the break and lack of Yank idiots did the trick.

Footy's on tonight so wont be on till late unless the game is crap but still up for some games.

            GO WORMS


A far superior product to Mortien
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   03-09-2007, 4:42 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
i'm always up for some battlefield! but i don't think i'll be playing this too drunk anymore*cough*bulltwang*cough* as i had my ars handed to me last night & lost 20pph!(lucky i was right off my head so it was funny;)lmfao
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   03-09-2007, 8:11 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
 The Blue Duck wrote:
 Jackall Bros wrote:

This post is for South East Queenslanders or at least gamers within an hour of the place.

If anyone is interested every month I play at a friends Gaming lounge which has 9 xbox360’s and he holds a marathon night which basically goes from about 8.00pm till dawn J we play Halo and Gears mainly with everyone shooting with a host connection is a great game and a great laugh cause if you don’t like the guy that tagged you just turn around and clip him over the head J .

Just a Shotgun blast one way is a Pizza place and a Frag throw the other is Big “M”, Sushi, noddle box and other food places. And out the front would be a Ute with an Esky in the back. Just a thought if anyone would be keen to meet face to face and have a laugh or game.

Ok I will go back to my crib game now.

Is that near the town center jack? Thats a bee's d!ck from my house.......well maybe a ducks d!ck Surprise [:O]

Hmmmm..........duck likes sushi.

No wonder you kicked our bottoms the other week, I wouldn't mind another Halo 2 night tho.

 

How do you do wee smileys Jackall?

Duckman,

Yes it is the place near the Robina town centre , I also live very close to this place. If you ever want to come for a night of killing and chilling let me know and can arrange a night.

As for the small smiley .put your glasses back on and they will get back to normal size J J J J .

Halo 2 is a great game but will try and suss the talk and mic stuff a lituff a bit more. If you set up a game which is a team event and play capture the flag or other variants it is great fun. And when you die no waiting and watching the other players going on a hunt.

Cheers Tony.

Will be looking for a Gears fix tonight after 24 hours without it. The wife decided she wanted to go out for her birthday. J

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   03-09-2007, 8:31 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
 Jackall Bros wrote:

Will be looking for a Gears fix tonight after 24 hours without it. The wife decided she wanted to go out for her birthday. J



That's just Rude! :D

you missed a good one last night.

my wife is away tonight so i'm up to play all night,  i do have to work tomorrow but sleep is over rated.

we are about to get smashed by a strom right now, is it safe to play the Xbox in a thunderstorm????

don't need a helmet, got a hard, hard head
don't need a bandage, there's too much...blood...
   Report 

   03-09-2007, 8:42 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

GO OUT FOR HER BIRTHDAY???Huh? [:^)]   Some people no consideration...

 

Well its errrr 7.41 am well into a large bottle of voddie so brace yourself tonight is fish the european night... a differant country for every match


Live In The Moment Or You'll Never Be Free
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   03-09-2007, 8:48 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

Will chat soon Jackall......

 

Threefish10......why did ya have to go and put ya mum on ebay? You know Hillman10 will be the only bidder Big Smile [:D]

 

:)


Come have some fun...
Dad's Army ANZ
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   03-09-2007, 10:08 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
Ahhhh would not the mother of a duck be a swan? dont fret my feathered friend i dont think your mum would be intrested in getting over the hillman..... well it's friday im pissed silly and nobody is online for me to share my anecdotes about brazillian waxing & it's similarities to hitler with.... allas i fear live has died such is the nature of things but for sooth tiss not the same being drunk taking the rise out of americans when they dont even have a word for sarcasm
Live In The Moment Or You'll Never Be Free
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   03-09-2007, 10:17 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
Woohoo!
New 360 in the house!!
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   03-09-2007, 10:22 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
Welcome back cliffy get ya backside on live Stick out tongue [:P]
Live In The Moment Or You'll Never Be Free
   Report 

   03-10-2007, 2:43 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

Good news.......Hillman's pick up prey and I think I heard threefish saying he's got it too!

We're one step closer to ol' dudes running around in undies shooting at each other Big Smile [:D]


Come have some fun...
Dad's Army ANZ
   Report 

   03-10-2007, 3:45 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
 The Blue Duck wrote:

Good news.......Hillman's pick up prey and I think I heard threefish saying he's got it too!

We're one step closer to ol' dudes running around in undies shooting at each other Big Smile [:D]



I don't have it yet, but i may have to invest in it, i'll trade that stupid lego star wars game for it, well now that i have every acheivement except 4 and i have like 138,957,697 lego studs it's just not as fun as it used to be.

don't need a helmet, got a hard, hard head
don't need a bandage, there's too much...blood...
   Report 

   03-10-2007, 5:24 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

Got to say count me out on that one lads... for many reasons not the least of which me in me undies not a pretty sight. Had prey traded prey hated prey just not my bag... looks like its a winter of cold nights with nobody but a lego princess leia for company.

Next on my wish list probably the darkness, forza motorsport 2 & Marvel Universe online when it comes out but for now im gamed to the max with about 10 i aint even close to being finished on. Oh and then theres always Uno to masterStick out tongue [:P]


Live In The Moment Or You'll Never Be Free
   Report 

   03-10-2007, 5:26 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
Aussie RAINBOW SIX VEGAS Players

Rainbow Six is a sick online game, multiplayer is mad fun with different game types to play ..
The maps are some of the best ive ever seen in any online game.
Real guns with real acuracy and damage. ( updated just recently to increase accuracy and damage realism )

Send me a msg and a friend request if ya in Australia or NZ and want to play Rainbow Six Vegas and ill msg ya when im hosting a game...

 old gits when ya bored with ya chainsaws and grenade tags i got a real gun ta blow ya brains out with ...


GRAW2 demo rocks too

looks like this is going to take on rainbow six as a great well coded online multi player game ...

makes gears look like a buggie piece of crud hehehehe thats not hard though .. Dont get me wrong i love gears but they cant even do stuff right that worked in Quake. HEY KILL ME IM JUMPING DOWN A LEDGE ..


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   03-10-2007, 5:42 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
PLAYER ADVANTAGE NOT HOST ADVANTAGE

whats the deal with host advantage who made that name up ( probly some grommet that just got killed a lot )

i say it how i see it so here goes ive read and heard a lot of crap about Host advantage and i think its only real for those that believe its true cause ya scared of the host killing ya ..

Heres an article about how the net works or more precise how packets travel over the net ..
Remamber that this is happening for every player to xbox live and back and to the hosts machine and back .
Also remember that not all packets go the same way and some get lost just to stuff us even more.
Slow packet traveling is what makes lag and comes from all players.

I SUGGEST THAT PLAYER ADVANTAGE IS REAL FOR ALL PLAYERS IN A GAME AND THERE IS NO HOST ADVANTAGE.

heres the article to really mess ya brain up...

Basic Journey of a Packet
Don Parker 2006-07-06

The purpose of this introductory article is to take a basic look at the journey of a packet across the Internet, from packet creation to switches, routers, NAT, and the packet's traverse across the Internet. This topic is recommended for those who are new to the networking and security field and may not have a basic understanding of the underlying process.

Introduction

Previous articles by this author have looked at the importance of two key areas of computer security for new users: programming and networking. While they are different disciplines, both networking and programming should largely be viewed as complimentary. If it were it not for the early programming of networking protocols there would be no network. That said, does one have to be a programmer in order to fully grasp networking concepts and theory at a low level? In many cases, you do not. However, a reader's natural curiosity will likely lead him toward programming at some point, in order to further experiment with various protocols and networking theory.

For many people new to the field, the first encounter with a computer is still a rather memorable one. When one discovers the Internet, the sheer magnitude of information provokes a sense of awe, and hopefully creates some curiosity on how the underlying technologies work. Perhaps the following quote from Humpty Dumpty is quite apropos, "We've crossed through the looking glass, Alice." One has seemingly entered a whole new world when using a computer to interact with other systems across the world. It is the curiosity about how this works that drives those new to the field to need to understand how did the computer and network does its thing. How did the information go from one computer to the next, and in turn go through all the various devices in order to reach its destination, sometimes continents away?

These are the voyages...

The opening lines of Star Trek are really rather appropriate for the journey undertaken by a packet. Once an Internet application is invoked, a whole series of events takes place. This article will be a simple introduction to how a packet is created and the various devices it will travel through on the way to its destination. Having an understanding of just what happens between point A and point Z can be quite helpful in furthering your understanding of networking.

What I shall now describe is what happens from the time an application is invoked to the time that the packets generated by this application reach their target. Suppose as a user you invoke Firefox to check out the news on your favorite web page. In the background, transparent to you the user, a whole series of events has now been set in motion. After the initial TCP/IP three way hand shake has been negotiated, your web browser will issue a request to the web server hosting your homepage asking for its homepage.

This HTTP GET request information now has to be sent to the web server. What happens is that Firefox, the application you invoked, will make a write request to the system. This process will cause the data that Firefox wants to send to be copied from the applications memory space to the socket send buffer within kernel space.

Depending on what transport protocol the application uses, the socket layer will call either UDP or TCP. We need to remember that not every application uses TCP as a transport protocol. DNS uses both UDP and TCP, while other applications such as TFTP will only use UDP. Once the socket layer calls the proper transport protocol, the data will be copied over into a socket buffer.

Fragmentation

When copying the data from the GET request issued over to a socket buffer, TCP will fragment this data if required. Although a GET request will fit easily into one packet, and will fall within the MTU for Ethernet without a problem, what happens if the browser's request exceeds the MTU? Should this occur, TCP itself will fragment the data in order to ensure that the size complies with the Ethernet MTU limit of 1500 bytes. A key point to remember here is that fragmentation will occur at the TCP layer if the application invoked uses TCP as it transport protocol. Should the application be using UDP then fragmentation, if required, will happen at the IP layer.

If you have ever done packet analysis, you will likely remember being confused by the two byte IP header field of, "flags and fragment offset". It is quite disconcerting to be confronted with a header value that has 13 bits assigned to it. Many budding analysts are confused, as up till then they had been dealing with bytes, nibbles, and sometimes one bit values. There is method to the madness here, as the people who designed these protocols were clever to say the very least. By looking at the IP header again we see that the "Total length" field is a two-byte one. We then realize that if we do the math correctly, the maximum size IP datagram ever allowable is 65535 byes in length. The illustration below is an example of this calculation as it impacts the "flags and fragment offset."

X  DF	MF 4096 2048 1024   512   256           128 64  32 16      8    4    2    1

1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

We can see from the above that even if all thirteen bits are set, you will only get a total value of 8191. That is nowhere near the 65535 maximal IP datagram size. What actually happens is that the fragmentation offset you see in packets is really in multiples of eight bytes. For instance the numerical values that you see in the fragmentation offset should be multiplied by eight so as to ascertain their exact place in the fragmented datagram.

On down the stack we go

Once the data has made past its respective transport layer, let's go down to the IP layer. At this point the IP header is built and the all important IP addresses are added. After this, the data then drops down to the data link layer where both the logical link control and media access control layers do their parts. Finally the data is now ready to transmitted by the physical layer as embodied by your NIC card. So in a series of 1's and 0's, off goes the GET request made from your browser along the physical medium until it reaches the Ethernet switch. For most users at home, a SoHo router is actually a combination of both a switch and a simple router. For corporate users, the switch is a separate piece of hardware from the router itself. If in a corporate environment then the computer is likely hooked to the switch via a length of CAT-5 cable or other medium. If the switch does not have a hard-coded CAM table then the switch takes note of the computer's MAC address (unique for each Ethernet card). When the packet comes back from its journey carrying the website's data, as requested in the outgoing GET request, the client computer's upstream switch will know where to send that packet back to.

How does the client computer know what its default gateway is? Whether or not it is in a corporate setting or is a home computer, the system would have normally been issued a DHCP packet once it booted up to get key information from the DHCP server. While not all systems use DHCP, most do and therefore do not have their IP address or gateway predetermined. Information such as which DNS servers to use, its IP address, and the default gateway IP address. If DHCP is turned off, the system administrator would have to enter all of this information by hand in the operating system. Not very efficient, which is why DHCP is largely turned on in most networks.

With the default gateway at hand, the computer knows where to go to in order to access the Internet and retrieve the web page, as requested by Firefox when it was invoked. After the packet goes through the switch it makes its way to the router, and may very well go through a firewall prior to the router as well. Should the packet go through a firewall first, the firewall will make note of several key features. A stateful firewall, which is what most firewalls are nowadays, will log the source IP address and port, plus the destination IP address and port. The firewall will keep this information in a state table in memory, as this is how it regulates access to the internal network. If a packet has not been logged leaving the network then it simply won't be allowed back into it. In overly simplified terms, that's how a firewall protects your computer.

Of routers and NAT

Now that the packet has passed through the firewall, if present, it is going to traverse the router. What will now happen is that the typically private IP address that this packet has (suppose it's a a 192.168/16 based address) will be converted to a routable public IP address that was given by your ISP, and in turned assigned to your router. Once done, the packet now begins its voyage across the Internet and through a multitude of routers that direct its journey. Each and every time though that the packet is forwarded to a router from another router, something happens to the packet itself.

Let's start by looking at the Internet-facing router. It will route the packet based on its own routing table information. Once the next router receives this same packet it will consult its own routing table, and send it on its way based on what it considers the best path. Before this happens, the router will change several fields in the IP header of the packet. One of the fields that will change is the TTL field or "time to live." Now, as part of the IP header has changed, the router must compute a new checksum value for the packet.

This same situation continues to unfold until the packet reaches its intended target, in our case it's the server hosting the web page. This packet will then be able to get past the router, which would be forwarding connections to the web server's TCP port 80. Once the packet arrives at the web server, the computer which hosts the content will take action on the request.

The physical layer will issue an IRQ to the CPU indicating that there is data to be processed. Once that occurs, the data is passed up the data link layer where the webserver will recognize the MAC as indeed being its own, and will pass it up to the IP layer. The IP address is in turn recognized as belonging to it so that it then passes the data up to the transport layer where it is put into the TCP buffer. At this point the application notices that the data is for it and it processes the information. The end result of this is that the information requested for in the GET request issued by the Firefox client is then sent back. This return process of generating a socket, then a packet that follows is the same path as the one I described above for the Firefox web client when it issued a GET request.

All that now remains is for the new packet to makes its way back to the IP address that originated the request. The same series of events takes place with the packet traversing a series of routers, which may or may not be the same ones its took to get there. With all of this activity taking place in the background, it is often taken for granted but it truly a marvel to understand. Not the least of which is the sheer speed at which this all happens with today's broadband connections. Back in the early days of the 9600 bps modems, this all occurred at a much slower speed then we now enjoy today.

Conclusion

The overall theme of this article was to try and impart the wonder that is networking to those who are very new to the field. To be able to understand very basic concepts such as routing, switching, and NAT is no small achievement for someone new to security. Anyone can speak words remembered by rote, but how many can actually explain the theory behind it? It's an excellent exercise to think one's way through a packet being created, all the way till it makes it way back to you. You may be surprised at just how complex a journey that is. The author welcomes your feedback in e-mail.


SO WE ALL GOOD,
THEN LETS GET BACK TO PUTTING TH SHOT GUN IN THE HOSTES FACE RIGHT !!!




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   03-10-2007, 6:28 AM
Reply Quote
Re: FEELING OLD !!!
 Glitch Tennant wrote:
PLAYER ADVANTAGE NOT HOST ADVANTAGE

whats the deal with host advantage who made that name up ( probly some grommet that just got killed a lot )

i say it how i see it so here goes ive read and heard a lot of crap about Host advantage and i think its only real for those that believe its true cause ya scared of the host killing ya ..

Heres an article about how the net works or more precise how packets travel over the net ..
Remamber that this is happening for every player to xbox live and back and to the hosts machine and back .
Also remember that not all packets go the same way and some get lost just to stuff us even more.
Slow packet traveling is what makes lag and comes from all players.

I SUGGEST THAT PLAYER ADVANTAGE IS REAL FOR ALL PLAYERS IN A GAME AND THERE IS NO HOST ADVANTAGE.

heres the article to really mess ya brain up...

Basic Journey of a Packet
Don Parker 2006-07-06

The purpose of this introductory article is to take a basic look at the journey of a packet across the Internet, from packet creation to switches, routers, NAT, and the packet's traverse across the Internet. This topic is recommended for those who are new to the networking and security field and may not have a basic understanding of the underlying process.

Introduction

Previous articles by this author have looked at the importance of two key areas of computer security for new users: programming and networking. While they are different disciplines, both networking and programming should largely be viewed as complimentary. If it were it not for the early programming of networking protocols there would be no network. That said, does one have to be a programmer in order to fully grasp networking concepts and theory at a low level? In many cases, you do not. However, a reader's natural curiosity will likely lead him toward programming at some point, in order to further experiment with various protocols and networking theory.

For many people new to the field, the first encounter with a computer is still a rather memorable one. When one discovers the Internet, the sheer magnitude of information provokes a sense of awe, and hopefully creates some curiosity on how the underlying technologies work. Perhaps the following quote from Humpty Dumpty is quite apropos, "We've crossed through the looking glass, Alice." One has seemingly entered a whole new world when using a computer to interact with other systems across the world. It is the curiosity about how this works that drives those new to the field to need to understand how did the computer and network does its thing. How did the information go from one computer to the next, and in turn go through all the various devices in order to reach its destination, sometimes continents away?

These are the voyages...

The opening lines of Star Trek are really rather appropriate for the journey undertaken by a packet. Once an Internet application is invoked, a whole series of events takes place. This article will be a simple introduction to how a packet is created and the various devices it will travel through on the way to its destination. Having an understanding of just what happens between point A and point Z can be quite helpful in furthering your understanding of networking.

What I shall now describe is what happens from the time an application is invoked to the time that the packets generated by this application reach their target. Suppose as a user you invoke Firefox to check out the news on your favorite web page. In the background, transparent to you the user, a whole series of events has now been set in motion. After the initial TCP/IP three way hand shake has been negotiated, your web browser will issue a request to the web server hosting your homepage asking for its homepage.

This HTTP GET request information now has to be sent to the web server. What happens is that Firefox, the application you invoked, will make a write request to the system. This process will cause the data that Firefox wants to send to be copied from the applications memory space to the socket send buffer within kernel space.

Depending on what transport protocol the application uses, the socket layer will call either UDP or TCP. We need to remember that not every application uses TCP as a transport protocol. DNS uses both UDP and TCP, while other applications such as TFTP will only use UDP. Once the socket layer calls the proper transport protocol, the data will be copied over into a socket buffer.

Fragmentation

When copying the data from the GET request issued over to a socket buffer, TCP will fragment this data if required. Although a GET request will fit easily into one packet, and will fall within the MTU for Ethernet without a problem, what happens if the browser's request exceeds the MTU? Should this occur, TCP itself will fragment the data in order to ensure that the size complies with the Ethernet MTU limit of 1500 bytes. A key point to remember here is that fragmentation will occur at the TCP layer if the application invoked uses TCP as it transport protocol. Should the application be using UDP then fragmentation, if required, will happen at the IP layer.

If you have ever done packet analysis, you will likely remember being confused by the two byte IP header field of, "flags and fragment offset". It is quite disconcerting to be confronted with a header value that has 13 bits assigned to it. Many budding analysts are confused, as up till then they had been dealing with bytes, nibbles, and sometimes one bit values. There is method to the madness here, as the people who designed these protocols were clever to say the very least. By looking at the IP header again we see that the "Total length" field is a two-byte one. We then realize that if we do the math correctly, the maximum size IP datagram ever allowable is 65535 byes in length. The illustration below is an example of this calculation as it impacts the "flags and fragment offset."

X  DF	MF 4096 2048 1024   512   256           128 64  32 16      8    4    2    1

1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

We can see from the above that even if all thirteen bits are set, you will only get a total value of 8191. That is nowhere near the 65535 maximal IP datagram size. What actually happens is that the fragmentation offset you see in packets is really in multiples of eight bytes. For instance the numerical values that you see in the fragmentation offset should be multiplied by eight so as to ascertain their exact place in the fragmented datagram.

On down the stack we go

Once the data has made past its respective transport layer, let's go down to the IP layer. At this point the IP header is built and the all important IP addresses are added. After this, the data then drops down to the data link layer where both the logical link control and media access control layers do their parts. Finally the data is now ready to transmitted by the physical layer as embodied by your NIC card. So in a series of 1's and 0's, off goes the GET request made from your browser along the physical medium until it reaches the Ethernet switch. For most users at home, a SoHo router is actually a combination of both a switch and a simple router. For corporate users, the switch is a separate piece of hardware from the router itself. If in a corporate environment then the computer is likely hooked to the switch via a length of CAT-5 cable or other medium. If the switch does not have a hard-coded CAM table then the switch takes note of the computer's MAC address (unique for each Ethernet card). When the packet comes back from its journey carrying the website's data, as requested in the outgoing GET request, the client computer's upstream switch will know where to send that packet back to.

How does the client computer know what its default gateway is? Whether or not it is in a corporate setting or is a home computer, the system would have normally been issued a DHCP packet once it booted up to get key information from the DHCP server. While not all systems use DHCP, most do and therefore do not have their IP address or gateway predetermined. Information such as which DNS servers to use, its IP address, and the default gateway IP address. If DHCP is turned off, the system administrator would have to enter all of this information by hand in the operating system. Not very efficient, which is why DHCP is largely turned on in most networks.

With the default gateway at hand, the computer knows where to go to in order to access the Internet and retrieve the web page, as requested by Firefox when it was invoked. After the packet goes through the switch it makes its way to the router, and may very well go through a firewall prior to the router as well. Should the packet go through a firewall first, the firewall will make note of several key features. A stateful firewall, which is what most firewalls are nowadays, will log the source IP address and port, plus the destination IP address and port. The firewall will keep this information in a state table in memory, as this is how it regulates access to the internal network. If a packet has not been logged leaving the network then it simply won't be allowed back into it. In overly simplified terms, that's how a firewall protects your computer.

Of routers and NAT

Now that the packet has passed through the firewall, if present, it is going to traverse the router. What will now happen is that the typically private IP address that this packet has (suppose it's a a 192.168/16 based address) will be converted to a routable public IP address that was given by your ISP, and in turned assigned to your router. Once done, the packet now begins its voyage across the Internet and through a multitude of routers that direct its journey. Each and every time though that the packet is forwarded to a router from another router, something happens to the packet itself.

Let's start by looking at the Internet-facing router. It will route the packet based on its own routing table information. Once the next router receives this same packet it will consult its own routing table, and send it on its way based on what it considers the best path. Before this happens, the router will change several fields in the IP header of the packet. One of the fields that will change is the TTL field or "time to live." Now, as part of the IP header has changed, the router must compute a new checksum value for the packet.

This same situation continues to unfold until the packet reaches its intended target, in our case it's the server hosting the web page. This packet will then be able to get past the router, which would be forwarding connections to the web server's TCP port 80. Once the packet arrives at the web server, the computer which hosts the content will take action on the request.

The physical layer will issue an IRQ to the CPU indicating that there is data to be processed. Once that occurs, the data is passed up the data link layer where the webserver will recognize the MAC as indeed being its own, and will pass it up to the IP layer. The IP address is in turn recognized as belonging to it so that it then passes the data up to the transport layer where it is put into the TCP buffer. At this point the application notices that the data is for it and it processes the information. The end result of this is that the information requested for in the GET request issued by the Firefox client is then sent back. This return process of generating a socket, then a packet that follows is the same path as the one I described above for the Firefox web client when it issued a GET request.

All that now remains is for the new packet to makes its way back to the IP address that originated the request. The same series of events takes place with the packet traversing a series of routers, which may or may not be the same ones its took to get there. With all of this activity taking place in the background, it is often taken for granted but it truly a marvel to understand. Not the least of which is the sheer speed at which this all happens with today's broadband connections. Back in the early days of the 9600 bps modems, this all occurred at a much slower speed then we now enjoy today.

Conclusion

The overall theme of this article was to try and impart the wonder that is networking to those who are very new to the field. To be able to understand very basic concepts such as routing, switching, and NAT is no small achievement for someone new to security. Anyone can speak words remembered by rote, but how many can actually explain the theory behind it? It's an excellent exercise to think one's way through a packet being created, all the way till it makes it way back to you. You may be surprised at just how complex a journey that is. The author welcomes your feedback in e-mail.


SO WE ALL GOOD,
THEN LETS GET BACK TO PUTTING TH SHOT GUN IN THE HOSTES FACE RIGHT !!!




ooooooooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkkk ummm, who ever actually read the post please say i cause i know i didnt


'Fight Alone! Die alone!'
'Mess with the best ' Bleed with the Rest'

| Hussle | Loyalty | Respect |
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   03-10-2007, 6:38 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
Um, yeah Glitch, can we get the summurised "Idiot's Guide to Host Advantage" version please.

But i personally don't think there is a host advatage, I seem to just get fecked up by everyone.

i've never hosted a game to tell if there is any differance but i know i've played with Hillman10 hosting a fair bit and yeah sure alot of the time he just goes nuts on your ar$e with a shotgun, but i've also seen games were he couldn't buy a kill and he'd be better off giving the controller to his mum to play(if she wasn't too busy round at Mr Fish's house)

don't need a helmet, got a hard, hard head
don't need a bandage, there's too much...blood...
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   03-10-2007, 6:42 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!
i read the first bit & then realised i'd read about all this stuff when i first started online gaming! the old memory isn't fracked yet!lol
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   03-10-2007, 7:15 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

Firstly a big shout out to my fellow Lvl 2 biatch.........MrFish. Move closer to the fire mate, your slippers are ready and your pipe is packed Smile [:)]

 

Ahem.....where's my glasses Geeked [8-|]

Yes good article Glitch.......you got the right thread?.......seriously though did read it (well most) and it's right. Only problem is it only talks about regular internet usage and data transfer where packets have a start and end. Gaming however does as well but because its constantly moving and updating everyones information the start of one packet is coming in before the previous packet has ended, creating data overlap and leaving the console to piece the puzzle together and sometimes guess an outcome.

Internet networking also has servers, gaming doesn't (not in asia-pacific anyways). The only thing classed as a server in gaming is the host.

 

Hillman does suck sometimes even when hosting but thats only because threefishs mum is visiting Smile [:)]

Sorry about the drop-outs last night peoples Embarrassed [:$]


Come have some fun...
Dad's Army ANZ
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   03-10-2007, 7:21 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

ahhhh in my senility i hadnt notticed but dam these seats are more comertable than the plastic ones we had in the lvl 1 waiting room....

 

Oh and i thought it was threefish's mum who did the sucking rather than hillman? Mind you she told me that her arthrites playes up holding the tweezers and magnifying glass for the 3 hours while the viagra kicks in. She recons she has to come round and cut the grass for me m8 cos considering she charges by the second what you pay her dont cover the bus fair....Stick out tongue [:P]


Live In The Moment Or You'll Never Be Free
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   03-10-2007, 8:29 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

So just for arguments sake I'd like to play Devils Advocate and say there is Host Advantage ( Hosage for short )

 

Backed by the following points:

 

1) If there was no advantage I wouldn't be able to get a Kill.

2) See point 1

3) I read the interview on IGN with the Gears Head Maker Dude, and they asked him about Hosage and he replied something like it being inevitable as the Host Suffers No Lag and therefore has advantage over their fellow players.

4) So there..........

5) and seriously as I host all the time I have noticed the Hosage especially in a 50/50 situation I win at least half the time.............

6) and really can tell the difference when I don't host i have to be that little bit closer to get that 1 shot kill with the shotty( and the Shotty Roady Run ).

 

Another thing I'd like to add is that for those people from Perth reading this I found a Games shop in the City today called GameTraders (in the Carillion Arcade) and they had nearl all the old titles for 50% off.

 

I picked up Tomb Raider for $40.Party!!! [<:o)]

 

                                                


A far superior product to Mortien
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   03-10-2007, 10:56 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

 Liquid CG Metal wrote:
 Glitch Tennant wrote:
PLAYER ADVANTAGE NOT HOST ADVANTAGE

whats the deal with host advantage who made that name up ( probly some grommet that just got killed a lot )


ooooooooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkkk ummm, who ever actually read the post please say i cause i know i didnt

I read the post and it was a bit of a chore to get through. This is likely to be a long one Liquid CG Metal so I don't expect you to read it. I don't see the point of you quoting the whole of Glitch Tennants post again just to say you didn't read it anyway.

 It doesn't make much sense unless you know alot about techie stuff already. There are alot of abbreviations that I don't know what they mean which makes it all gobbledegook. It probably explains very well how data travels through networks but did nothing for me to dispel the probability of host advantage in Gears. It's not so much how the data goes back and forth but how the game works.

I can only speak from my own experience online. I've played alot of Gears online now and the lag issue is so blatent that it's easy to tell when I've joined a game where the host has a slow upload or my connection with them is slow.

Success in Gears is all about timing, ( like most games ), and using the shotgun is where lag is most noticeable and the best example to use. In single player the gun fires at a certain rate. When hosting it fires at the same rate as single player. When joining a match it is slower to fire successive shots. It is blatently slower and the slower the upload ( both the players and the hosts ), the slower the response of all weapons. There is a delay from when the trigger is pressed to when the gun fires and is governed by the ping to and from the host and your box, as is all game data. This delay can vary from round to round and even that change is noticable when you've spent as many hours as I have playing games over the years. In most cases it's a fraction of a second which doesn't sound like much but bullets from host weapons travel at zero ping and it's their box that tell ours when we are down or dead. A fraction of a second in a shotgun battle with a host is all it takes to be blown into splatter. Getting used to the timing of shots is the key to being effective with the shotty and when facing the other joiners in the match it can be devastatingly good to have a bit of lag.

The host is the only player in the game that plays in real time and all joiners play at whatever rate of ping they have. That means that if you are standing still then move your controller up, you will move on the host box at whatever fraction of a second sooner than you do on your own screen. If the host moves we will see it after they do because their box has to tell ours that the movement is happening.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that has pulled a trigger or tried to fire up the chainsaw only to have to wait for it to work. A host chainsaw revs as soon as the button is pressed. The guns fire faster and reload quicker as it all happens at zero ping. In my experience anyway.

I've been in shotgun battles and the shotty is firing at a certain rate. I'm almost toast but I know I'm hitting them and I'm one shot in front. I pull the trigger hoping that this last shot will save me but the shot doesn't even work. What happens is the game does that weird slowdown thing for a second or two and I get blown into pieces because by the time my trigger pull data got there the host pulled the trigger and my box gets updated with the info that i just got splattered.

If I pull my left trigger to pop up from cover the data travels to the host and I pop up on his screen, a fraction of a second later his box tells mine I popped up and I then see it on my screen. The host sees me pop up and pops up himself to line me up for a snipe at my head. My box gets the data and I see him pop up a fraction of a second after he did on his screen. I realise he is trying to snipe so I let my trigger go to drop. Meanwhile my head is still sticking out on his screen and he pulls the trigger at the same time that I let mine go to drop. My data that I dropped has to travel to the host box and back, the host shot is instant, my head pops off on his screen while it is still sticking up. The data that I have been killed only has to travel half the distance. My controller input is returned to me and a fraction of a second later so is the data that I have been sniped. On my screen I drop behind cover and then my head pops apart from a bullet that seemingly went through concrete. This situation cannot happen to the host regardless of anyone elses ping rate because the host has zero ping and controls what we see.

I was a sceptic to the rumours of host advantage until I tried it myself. Give it a go Threefish10. I'm interested to hear what your verdict is after a bit of hands on hosting.

First thing I noticed was the rate of fire and reloading difference. Next was that somehow I had a shotty full of explosive rounds. I was still fairly new to Gears and I went straight to the top of the leaderboard with lots of kills. It all seemed a bit easier. I've only hosted 5 or 6 games but it was pretty consistent with the slaughter. The lancer seemed to down people in half the number of bullets. I did host a match where I didn't do very well but that was because my aim was $hit and I knew it.

I've played in games with great upload speeds and kicked a$$ and then sucked in the next match with the same speed. I kicked a$$ because I shot well. I sucked because I couldn't hit a semi-trailer. My skill or lack of it made the difference and I was well aware of it.

I've played in games with fairly unresponsive weapons and know I'm shooting pretty well but have been drilled by the host, as where the other players.

I don't know who came up with the term Host Advantage but it's not new and not unique to Gears. It's just that Gears is so bad it's become a buzz word.

I searched on it and found lots of people agreeing with it and nothing to say it's not real. Gears is being hammered for it all over the net. Surely if it's not real Epic would stick up for their game.

I did find this link to an interview with a professional gamer that goes as far as to say that Gears is unsuitable for competetive play because host advantage is such an issue. http://dpad.gotfrag.com/xbox360/story/36687/?spage=1

 


Better Than Life!
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   03-10-2007, 11:12 AM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

Here's a short post just to say that the last one I did was too long. I read it a few times and found it very informative.

Also it looks like GRAW2 online is going to be awesome. Played the demo and it's lotsa fun. Fits lots of players into the room and has a lot of weapons to kill each other with.

Rainbow six vegas is sweet too. Lots of customisation of weapons and appearence online. It's good when players look different because it's nice to warn someone if they are gonna get shot in the back. Instead of the 'behind you' cry in Gears that no one knows if it means them or someone on the other side of the map.Getting points to unlock new gear is good too. The raging bull handgun is a satisfying cannon indeed.

Had no lag issues with Vegas in rooms of up to 14 players which puts Gears to shame. It can even take the odd player from the UK or US and only they suffer the lag if any.


Better Than Life!
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   03-10-2007, 12:49 PM
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Re: FEELING OLD !!!

Just to add my 2 cents on the host advantage, there seems to be an element of randomness added into this game as far as the way it calculates hits and damage to players.  I think it is similar to rolling  dice. I don't think it is just an aim and speed calculation. 

 

I've never hosted, but have had my fair share of good and bad nights.  Some nights Baygon has been hosting on his fast connection and been absolutey hammered, while me with my 128 upload have managed to win. I find alot of my lag comes from eye to brain to hands to controller. With other modifiers like alcohol and screaming kids.

 

Unfortunately it is a flawed game we all love. Check out the gears threads in the games forums, a lot of people are taking this game far too seriously.

 

Awesome to see you guys back on player games.

 

Fish, you crack me up :)

 

 


Xbox in a coffin.

DadsArmy
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