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Started by Xonatron at 04-30-2009 7:56 AM. Topic has 128 replies.
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   04-30-2009, 7:56 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
New trailer (in HD)...

Duality ZF (April 2009 Trailer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TkG6J2CWvU
M Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF (Dream Build Play Top 20)
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   04-30-2009, 7:59 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
And thanks for the compliments, Pandapadawan.  The game is slightly more "dirty" and less "clean", but the simplistic graphics are still there.  Your black and white mode idea is interesting... have you seen this before?  The only problem is it hides the enemy ships (as well as your own) if only the bullets are colored.
M Doucette / Xona Games
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   04-30-2009, 8:38 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
Is the game in playtest/review yet? Still says April 2009 release on your site. Looking great.
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   04-30-2009, 3:59 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 HadesGigas wrote:
Is the game in playtest/review yet? Still says April 2009 release on your site. Looking great.

Sorry, we missed the April release, but it should be this month.  As you can see from the trailer the gameplay is basically finished.  We are working on polish you cannot see in trailer gameplay.  It shouldn't be long.  We hope our extended efforts pay off.  We are one of the few in XBLCG who have really taken extra time making our game.
M Doucette / Xona Games
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   04-30-2009, 5:08 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 Xonatron wrote:
And thanks for the compliments, Pandapadawan.  The game is slightly more "dirty" and less "clean", but the simplistic graphics are still there.  Your black and white mode idea is interesting... have you seen this before?  The only problem is it hides the enemy ships (as well as your own) if only the bullets are colored.


Haven't seen that before, it's just something that came to my mind while watching the last video. If anything I was inspired by Sin City. Still got 1400 points, 400 will be spent on Duality.
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   05-04-2009, 11:57 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)

I keep checking daily for this.......I know one day it will be there ;)  Looking great from the new vids.....this will get a lot of my playtime....


Shoot the core!!!
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   05-05-2009, 1:26 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
I'm still eagerly anticipating this one.
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   05-05-2009, 6:13 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
It's nice to see another CG with proper production values. I see too many claiming that they have to compromise because they're using XNA and that's nonsense. I can't help being reminded of Raiden, and I'd be really surprised if that was not an inspiration. Here's hoping I still have online when this comes out, so I can enjoy it. Now that we got a proper shmup, who is going to make me a proper beat-em up ?

Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !
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   05-05-2009, 2:24 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
Thank you all!

The only thing we had to compromise on is our hours as we're only a two man programming team without artists.  So game features and artwork were compromised, which will see the light of day in sequels, but it had nothing to do with XNA.  We are still happy with our results because of our extended work.  How many other Community Games have spent 8+ months in development?

The Raiden series were an inspiration, but so were a lot of other 2D shooters.  We have played and beat nearly ever shooter that has come our way.  The best description of our inspiration is that it came from the best elements in a lot of shooters.  Not only in what works, but also in what doesn't work.  I wiill not be surprised, and I have already seen it happen slightly, that gamers will think we are missing a feature because we did not have time to put it in (or were too "stupid" to know) when actually the feature is missing because of choice.  Shields, bombs, and ship-combining are all examples.  You can see we never explicitly copied off another game.  We chose what works, and skipped what does not.  However cool ship-combining is, for example, is it what an expert player wants?  No.  Find me a 2D shooter gameplay recording of an expert that uses ship-combining.  What expert players want is effective weapons and effective weapon controls (our spread/laser weapon) and the true elites want to control two ships at once to dominate the game with double the firepower (dual play).  So we ended up with two innovative features, in a genre that is practically impossible to innovate in, that are what players actually want in the midst of gameplay, not just gimmicks that will never be used.

I will admit that Raiden II, or maybe Raiden DX which I have yet to play, is probably the best overall 2D shooter, ever.  But it's interesting to note that our team has always wanted to do a horizontal shooter, not a vertical one like Raiden and Duality ZF, so our true inspiration lies with the horizontal sub-genre of the shmup genre.  Thunder Force series comes to mind as a great inspiration.  But, the widescreen format allowed more room for eight fighters, plus vertical shooters are easier for a first game, so the choice to go vertical was already made for us. 

Back to the original point, compromising for XNA is often nothing more than an excuse.  I say "often" because there are some things some developers have had to comprosmise on.  I know of at least one game that had to drop its framerate, instead of dropping features, once the game was ported to the Xbox.

...

I thought you all would get a kick out of our new ad spot on XNA Roundup, we are mentioned four times in it (the last being the trailer spot at the end):

XNA Roundup #16 Tank Strike, A Great Easter Egg Hunt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Bd0qWSjac
M Doucette / Xona Games
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   05-05-2009, 4:54 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
XNA has severe limitations.  The GPU can handle just about anything but XNA runs on top of the Compact .NET Framework which barely has floating point support (it almost didn't) let alone compiler optimization for it.  The compiler also doesn't optimize other things like function calls that have been inlined automatically for decades now, which normally help programmers make faster, bug-free code, rather than forcing them to accept slower code or repeated code.  To get 60 fps with Duality ZF action took a severe amount of optimization which isn't required on a slower PC CPU due to its proper .NET Framework foundation and compiler.  The Schizoid programmers had the same issues.  The quickness of XNA to produce a prototype is taken away as soon as you attempt to do a commercial quality game due to all the optimizations required.  It is possible to make quality games in XNA, but you have to work for it.

J Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF
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   05-05-2009, 5:57 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
To further what Jason posted, I should retract what I said with some clarification:  We *did* have to compromise... Compromise on the release date due to our extended effort and development time it took to build Duality ZF, which is not a compromise many XNA developers have made.  Again, we are 8 months in, and how many XBLCG games match that development time?  So even though the only compromise to the game itself was features and artwork, our extended development time is a large compromise, too.  Not to mention, not every developer can optimize the way Jason has, but at the end of the day that's what separates the bad from the good from the great.  Our videos have yet to show the full power of Duality ZF's optimized 60fps engine, which can only be witnessed with eight fighters fully powered up mixed in with a mess of enemies and their bullets.  Such moments in our game will be rare.
M Doucette / Xona Games
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   05-05-2009, 6:56 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
I'm glad you all took the time to improve the game. I've personally never worked on anything I was happy with that took less than year of development. I tend to laugh at new developers who try making games in only a couple of months and expect something with polish to come out of it. I believe The Dishwasher actually had more than 8 months, but you can clearly see the results of that.

As you use XNA more, I've no doubt you'll become better at optimizing with it and spend less time on that and more on content. This is not exclusive to XNA, as any programming language or utility works this way. Even if I get a dusty old version of Maxis Klik N Play, I'd have to spend about a year learning how to use it properly and my first game would probably be garbage, and was.

So I think the problem comes more from people trying to rush through development in general and assuming that games are made in under a year. Even Zmaniac has stated that he wished more people would spend time polishing their games before they released them. XNA is however a more liberal process, and so long as they pass review we can play them. I just wish that didn't lead to what are essentially betas being released as 1.x versions.

Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !
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   05-13-2009, 3:57 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
This game looks amazing and this might fuel my Touhou want for Xbox Live most XBC games are utter crap but I'm highly looking forward to this thanks for all the work you've put into it.
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   05-13-2009, 4:09 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 kagatoASUKA89 wrote:
This game looks amazing and this might fuel my Touhou want for Xbox Live most XBC games are utter crap but I'm highly looking forward to this thanks for all the work you've put into it.


Thank you.  If we can satisfy fans of Touhou Project then that would be amazing!  We hope to be an example of what XBLCG is capable of and break the idea that XBLCG is not worth your time.  It is already not the case.  Plus, doing this with a shmup, we hope to inspire some shmup fan support.  If we can, we have a hit.  Shmup fans are quite something else, and I hope they enjoy and support our effort.  It could lead to bigger and better things for the shmup community on Xbox.  They are tough critics, though.
M Doucette / Xona Games
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   05-13-2009, 4:13 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 Xonatron wrote:
 kagatoASUKA89 wrote:
This game looks amazing and this might fuel my Touhou want for Xbox Live most XBC games are utter crap but I'm highly looking forward to this thanks for all the work you've put into it.


Thank you.  If we can satisfy fans of Touhou Project then that would be amazing!  We hope to be an example of what XBLCG is capable of and break the idea that XBLCG is not worth your time.  It is already not the case.  Plus, doing this with a shmup, we hope to inspire some shmup fan support.  If we can, we have a hit.  Shmup fans are quite something else, and I hope they enjoy and support our effort.  It could lead to bigger and better things for the shmup community on Xbox.  They are tough critics, though.

I wish you the best of luck this is already a day one buy for me and seeing it at only 400 points just made it even more of a day one buy from what I've seen in the trailers it already looks great on par with the looks of XBLA Shmups infact when I first saw it I thought it was.
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   05-16-2009, 3:58 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
Another delay? Release date used to be January, February, April, then May, now it's just Summer 2009.
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   05-18-2009, 1:09 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
Each time we push the release back it's because we're adding more to the game.  We'll continue to improve anything we perceive as a flaw, regardless of the date.  The end product is going to be amazing, so it's time well spent.  I wish I knew an exact release date as well, but it's impossible to know.  Right now, we're working on making the boss fights more enjoyable with lots of fun bullet patterns that scale properly with all the possible difficulty settings.

J Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF
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   05-18-2009, 9:51 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
I appreciate you adding more to the game but maybe you should stop giving out release dates. :) Or have a feature list you want to complete before release and add additional stuff in an update.
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   05-18-2009, 4:44 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)

Isn't a moving release date and feature creep part of being a professional game studio ;-)

Lets just hope you are not as professional as Duke Nukem Forever eh?


ZMan

XNA Game Studio MVP
http://www.thezbuffer.com
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   05-19-2009, 4:03 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 The ZManiac wrote:

Isn't a moving release date and feature creep part of being a professional game studio ;-)

Lets just hope you are not as professional as Duke Nukem Forever eh?



LOL, or
 ID Software's Rage

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   05-19-2009, 5:22 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 HugeJuge wrote:
Each time we push the release back it's because we're adding more to the game.  We'll continue to improve anything we perceive as a flaw, regardless of the date.  The end product is going to be amazing, so it's time well spent.  I wish I knew an exact release date as well, but it's impossible to know.  Right now, we're working on making the boss fights more enjoyable with lots of fun bullet patterns that scale properly with all the possible difficulty settings.

I have 1700 points right now and I really want this game or something like it.. now lol anyone got any other suggestions?
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   05-19-2009, 5:30 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 kagatoASUKA89 wrote:
 HugeJuge wrote:
Each time we push the release back it's because we're adding more to the game.  We'll continue to improve anything we perceive as a flaw, regardless of the date.  The end product is going to be amazing, so it's time well spent.  I wish I knew an exact release date as well, but it's impossible to know.  Right now, we're working on making the boss fights more enjoyable with lots of fun bullet patterns that scale properly with all the possible difficulty settings.

I have 1700 points right now and I really want this game or something like it.. now lol anyone got any other suggestions?
1942 Joint Strike on XBLA has a similar widescreen co-op shump concept. But not the crazy eight ships at once or bullet hell mode things this game has going on. If Duality can deliver on all it's promise it could honestly blow 1942 out of the water, especially at half the price.
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   05-19-2009, 5:48 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 HadesGigas wrote:
 kagatoASUKA89 wrote:
 HugeJuge wrote:
Each time we push the release back it's because we're adding more to the game.  We'll continue to improve anything we perceive as a flaw, regardless of the date.  The end product is going to be amazing, so it's time well spent.  I wish I knew an exact release date as well, but it's impossible to know.  Right now, we're working on making the boss fights more enjoyable with lots of fun bullet patterns that scale properly with all the possible difficulty settings.

I have 1700 points right now and I really want this game or something like it.. now lol anyone got any other suggestions?
1942 Joint Strike on XBLA has a similar widescreen co-op shump concept. But not the crazy eight ships at once or bullet hell mode things this game has going on. If Duality can deliver on all it's promise it could honestly blow 1942 out of the water, especially at half the price.

Is there anything most bullet hellish
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   05-19-2009, 6:04 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 kagatoASUKA89 wrote:
 HadesGigas wrote:
 kagatoASUKA89 wrote:
 HugeJuge wrote:
Each time we push the release back it's because we're adding more to the game.  We'll continue to improve anything we perceive as a flaw, regardless of the date.  The end product is going to be amazing, so it's time well spent.  I wish I knew an exact release date as well, but it's impossible to know.  Right now, we're working on making the boss fights more enjoyable with lots of fun bullet patterns that scale properly with all the possible difficulty settings.

I have 1700 points right now and I really want this game or something like it.. now lol anyone got any other suggestions?
1942 Joint Strike on XBLA has a similar widescreen co-op shump concept. But not the crazy eight ships at once or bullet hell mode things this game has going on. If Duality can deliver on all it's promise it could honestly blow 1942 out of the water, especially at half the price.

Is there anything most bullet hellish
Well Triggerheart Exelica and Ikaruga would probably be closer than 1942. Not sure how crazy you're looking for but those are the other vetrical shooters on XBLA, and are a lot more fast paced at the very least. Another interesting game is Wartech Senko No Ronde, it's a retail disc game, but should be under $10 anywhere you find it. It's a like a shump fighting game that probably should have just been an XBLA game in the first place so maybe people would have tried it.
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   05-19-2009, 2:47 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
All the features that we've decided to add after the fact are things we've been arguing about one way or the other, so it's not really feature creep, since we're not just saying "hey, it'd be cool if it had this!"  We have full plans on releasing Duality II in the future, and all those things will be implemented in the second version.  The features we're actually adding are things we believe we absolutely need.  Without them, the gamers will feel a bit of disappointment, and reviewers will be saying "the game is great except...".  The boss fights have been bugging me for some time, and the improvement of them was originally in the schedule but removed to have an early release date.  I think that was a mistake.

You guys are going to be happy with Duality ZF.  1942 doesn't hold a candle to it.  I am a fan of the series, but the game is just slow and boring, and your ship is underpowered, and there's sections in the game where you can't shoot (a shooter that doesn't shoot? huh?).  Ikaruga is great, but it's a twist on the shmup series, almost more a brain teaser or a puzzle.  I like it, but the lack of clarity in 3D graphics makes it hard to determine hitbox tolerances.  Raiden Fighters Aces just arrived as a commercial game, and I'm a HUGE fan of the series (Duality ZF draws inspiration from the originals in the series), and while it's fun, it's not as fun as Duality.  They didn't pay attention to ensuring ease of visibility of your fighter, and seem to miss the fact that people watch the bullet stream and enemies, not the fighter itself, so without a proper weapon system, you can lose track of where you are, especially with two escort fighters that look similar.  I don't know how many times I've died without knowing why.  It's refreshing to see that the things that bug me enough to fix in my game, get a "pass" on the commercial arcades.  It means I care about quality and gameplay.  I find I get a little spoiled with my own game, and expect the same of others, and am frustrated when I don't see them pay as much attention.

For 400 points, you'll want to check out Duality ZF regardless of these other purchases, I am sure.  None of the other games have 4x multiplayer, and none of them have Dual Play on top of that for 8 fighters at once.  And none have a multidirectional control mode that kills Geometry Wars. ;)  And our online scoreboards rank every play.  You don't have to specifically ask to play a LIVE game with specific difficulty settings.  Any game mode, any difficulty mode, any number of players you choose -- are all recorded and have comparable scores in the online scoreboards. :)  You'll see your ranking each time you play and be compared against friends.

J Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF
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   05-19-2009, 9:45 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
You just lost another five minutes while writing that you should've spent on completing Duality. No more sleep for you, sir. ;)
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   05-24-2009, 5:46 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
After reading that reply Xonatron, I can tell you guys really know your stuff........good call on all points.....

My frothing demand for Duality is increasing daily........get this game out NOW!  And stop playing RFA, it's a distraction.....  ;)


Shoot the core!!!
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   05-24-2009, 7:16 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 kagatoASUKA89 wrote:
 HugeJuge wrote:
Each time we push the release back it's because we're adding more to the game.  We'll continue to improve anything we perceive as a flaw, regardless of the date.  The end product is going to be amazing, so it's time well spent.  I wish I knew an exact release date as well, but it's impossible to know.  Right now, we're working on making the boss fights more enjoyable with lots of fun bullet patterns that scale properly with all the possible difficulty settings.

I have 1700 points right now and I really want this game or something like it.. now lol anyone got any other suggestions?


Save your points for Duality and spend $20 on Raiden Fighters Aces. You can grab it for $20 on sites such as Amazon, and it's three classic shooters on a single disc. Excellent games, and the leaderboards with playthrough uploading make it worth the $20 alone.
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   05-25-2009, 3:40 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
[Mod edit: Matthew misread the post above and corrected himself in a later posts..]

Thanks shmupnut.  For the record, we also own and play Raiden Fighters Aces.  Shmupnut's joke was we play it too much!  We highly recommended it to everyone.  However, it's no replacement for Duality ZF.  We beat RFA on a few counts:  True proportional analog controls vs. RFA's 8 directional digital old-school controls.  4x local multiplayer vs. RFA's 2 players.  Online team scores.  Widescreen support vs. RFA titled screen.  Dual play.  Multidirectional mode.  G-Mode (you are going to love this one).  Bullet Hell.  Survival.  8 fighters on screen at once vs. RFA's 2.  Online scoreboards for all 96 game styles vs. RFA's specific Xbox LIVE mode and settings for leaderboards.  RFA's default play modes have no leaderboards whereas every mode in Duality ZF has an online scoreboard.  We have 6 game modes vs. RFA's 4 (one of those four is the same game only timed).  We have a unique scoring system based on game domination not game memorization.  Watch a superplay of both games and you will see a major difference in gaming style.  Kill enemies fast to get a better score instead of worrying about finding fairies and hidden secrets.  It's not that we are better, we are just different and unique.  Our widescreen allows four players to play the game and feels less cramped than RFA with two players.  Widescreen allows room for incredible dual play tactics, too; Try to control two fighters, far apart, at the same time.  There are many subtleties in game play and game mechanics we have worked on that are improvements compared to RFA... such as enemy bullet detection (more power to the player).

This is not to say RFA doesn't beat our game on many counts, too.  RFA is more professional than we could hope to be as a two man team.  Raiden Fighters Aces is incredible.  I pre-ordered it, following shmup forums to know when it would come out so I wouldn't miss a day.  But, we are two different games.  And I would highly suggest buying both if you like shooters, not one over the other.  RFA is a steal for $20, but so is Duality ZF at $5.

Any Raiden arcade should easily kill a Community Game shooter.  The fact that you said to buy Raiden over our game is not something said about other XBLCG shooters so we should take it as a compliment that we are even on the map.  And we have built something that will at least bite into some of a shmup gamer's playing time.  I would like to append to Xomino's advice and say spend $25 and get both games.
M Doucette / Xona Games
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   05-25-2009, 3:54 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
I think Xomino was replying specifically to kagatoASUKA89, telling him to save his 1700 points on his account for Duality ZF (i.e. don't spend / waste them on other games) and then use real money to buy Raiden Figther Aces for $20 (i.e. buy both games).  Correct me if I'm wrong.

J Doucette / Xona Games
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