"Do I really care if I can navigate my Netflix queue without using a controller? I had a very hard time envisioning playing Modern Warfare 3 using Natal. By contrast, I had a very easy time envisioning it (and enjoying it) using Sony's control/motion capture scheme."

"Microsoft appears to be trying to steal casual gamers away from Nintendo, which is a difficult proposition given that you're essentially asking casual gamers to upgrade twice during the cycle (assuming they already own a Wii). In contrast, Sony is squarely targeting the core gamer market, which is what they need to be doing,"

http://www.destructoid.com/analyst-says-sony-s-motion-control-beats-natal-137741.phtml

Meh, dont care bout either. both look too casual.

Natal has been getting a lot more attention and is less restricted. Sony's wiimote tracks one point in 3D and doesn't have too many buttons. There's only so much you can do with one hand's fingers wrapped around a stick without dropping it. It's not a two handed gadget either. Trying to move and navigate menus and all the rest with less buttons has got to be a bigger pain than having limitless traceable motions and voice controls and not to mention that it can recognize a great deal of details if it has facial recognition. In the end regardless of what a few analysts said Natal is widely believed and expected to be the superior gadget if it can deliver on everything that has been shown as I'm sure it will.

Also keep in mind that controlling a game with your body doesn't always HAVE to mean 1 to 1 movement interpretation. They can definitley have more subtle movements that control in-game running and jumping and so on. For example setting one foot forward may cause your character to start walking forward and bringing it back will make you stop or walk backwards. This way you wouldn't have to run into the TV or get a treadmill as others humorously suggested.

If Natal works then Sony's wimmote doesn't stand a chance.

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The Force Unleashed 1345/1345, Lost Odyssey 1100/1100

 Darth Trethon wrote:

Also keep in mind that controlling a game with your body doesn't always HAVE to mean 1 to 1 movement interpretation. They can definitley have more subtle movements that control in-game running and jumping and so on. For example setting one foot forward may cause your character to start walking forward and bringing it back will make you stop or walk backwards. This way you wouldn't have to run into the TV or get a treadmill as others humorously suggested.

If Natal works then Sony's wimmote doesn't stand a chance.

But aint that the  point of natal? What about turning youre head in halo or something like that too? do the macarena? ill stick with my controller. i dont want to come home from work or the gym and jump around like a traffic controller covered in beatles. i want to relax. Well at least people with natal will be easy targets online.

 Darth Trethon wrote:

Also keep in mind that controlling a game with your body doesn't always HAVE to mean 1 to 1 movement interpretation. They can definitley have more subtle movements that control in-game running and jumping and so on. For example setting one foot forward may cause your character to start walking forward and bringing it back will make you stop or walk backwards. This way you wouldn't have to run into the TV or get a treadmill as others humorously suggested.

If Natal works then Sony's wimmote doesn't stand a chance.

ive grown bored of trying to convince people of the capabilities of natal, if it does work like its advertised its going to have 3d head tracking which means it will play a part with 1st person and 3rd person shooters but the part that it plays wont be running around your room using your couch as cover as some people are stating, however natal will play a part in 1st and 3rd person shooters by making them true 3d.

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I think Sonys motion controller will be more practical to core gamers, much more than NATAL. But the problem is that Sony have yet to make an accesory that doesn't completely bomb. It won't have any support, will be a stupid price, and you have to buy an eyetoy on top of it.

NATAL will have a much wider support and market penetration, but I don't think it will be of any use to shooters, strategy games or others that Sonys motion controller would be.

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A troll is someone who will state something only with the intention of stirring up controversy.

 maul 2k8 wrote:

I think Sonys motion controller will be more practical to core gamers, much more than NATAL. But the problem is that Sony have yet to make an accesory that doesn't completely bomb. It won't have any support, will be a stupid price, and you have to buy an eyetoy on top of it.

NATAL will have a much wider support and market penetration, but I don't think it will be of any use to shooters, strategy games or others that Sonys motion controller would be.

The biggest problems I see with it are:

1) Fewer buttons and only one traceable point.

2) It is a one hand device.

3) How comfortable is it to press buttons with your fingers wrapped around it? Now they have to figure out how to navigate menus, move a character in 3D and a whole lot of other stuff whit the same fingers you use to swing a stick your hand tightly grips....at the same time.

4) It has no voice commands to complement its deficits and shortcomings.

The only reason people expect it to appeal to the core gamers is because of the magic word "buttons" which is something we're all familiar with in controllers. What people don't realize is that that thing isn't a controller....it's a pain that's what it is. Have you ever pressed a controller's buttons with your little finger? No? Then be prepared to have to start doing it because Sony's stick will need all the buttons it can get and you can only use one hand to use it. But once that thing gets in the hands of the gamers and people realize that it's far more limited than Natal it'll be a whole different story. If you think Natal is limited(it isn't) then be prepared to realize that Sony's stick is completely useless.

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The Force Unleashed 1345/1345, Lost Odyssey 1100/1100

 Darth Trethon wrote:

The biggest problems I see with it are:

1) Fewer buttons and only one traceable point.

2) It is a one hand device.

3) How comfortable is it to press buttons with your fingers wrapped around it? Now they have to figure out how to navigate menus, move a character in 3D and a whole lot of other stuff whit the same fingers you use to swing a stick your hand tightly grips....at the same time.

4) It has no voice commands to complement its deficits and shortcomings.

The only reason people expect it to appeal to the core gamers is because of the magic word "buttons" which is something we're all familiar with in controllers. What people don't realize is that that thing isn't a controller....it's a pain that's what it is. Have you ever pressed a controller's buttons with your little finger? No? Then be prepared to have to start doing it because Sony's stick will need all the buttons it can get and you can only use one hand to use it. But once that thing gets in the hands of the gamers and people realize that it's far more limited than Natal it'll be a whole different story. If you think Natal is limited(it isn't) then be prepared to realize that Sony's stick is completely useless.

Does Guitar Hero count?  That game made my pinky finger a formidable weapon.

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He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man.

 Dr Gonzo LLC wrote:

Does Guitar Hero count?  That game made my pinky finger a formidable weapon.

1) We're talking hardcore games so GH doesn't qualify.
2) You are comfortably holding a guitar shaped controller not a rather thin stick that will drop out of your hand if you loosen your grip too much.
3) On the guitar shaped controller with a sling around the neck you can relax your hand without worrying that it will fall out of your hand the moment you open your fingers a bit.
4) How sill the thin stick work for hands of different sizes? Some have small hands and some have really large hands. That isn't much of a problem with the guitar.

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The Force Unleashed 1345/1345, Lost Odyssey 1100/1100

 Darth Trethon wrote:

 Dr Gonzo LLC wrote:

Does Guitar Hero count?  That game made my pinky finger a formidable weapon.

1) We're talking hardcore games so GH doesn't qualify.
2) You are comfortably holding a guitar shaped controller not a rather thin stick that will drop out of your hand if you loosen your grip too much.
3) On the guitar shaped controller with a sling around the neck you can relax your hand without worrying that it will fall out of your hand the moment you open your fingers a bit.
4) How sill the thin stick work for hands of different sizes? Some have small hands and some have really large hands. That isn't much of a problem with the guitar.

1) It's still a game though, and a difficult one at that
2) I'm sure the design will change through the development process.  The Wii-mote was given rubber grips and a wrist strap to prevent what you're describing.
3) I don't think the PS3 wand will be that unweildly to hang onto, this goes back to the wrist strap thing
4) Again, the dev process will see what works and what doesn't, this goes back to the rubber grip thing

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He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man.

I don't remember Microsoft EVER saying they would make games such as Modern warfare "3" to use with Natal. It is unfair to try and imagine something when they did not tell us what types of games they would be trying to incorporate into it. Until Microsoft tells me they plan to offer ALL games as Natal then that review is moronic at best.

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 Judge Bergan wrote:

I don't remember Microsoft EVER saying they would make games such as Modern warfare "3" to use with Natal. It is unfair to try and imagine something when they did not tell us what types of games they would be trying to incorporate into it. Until Microsoft tells me they plan to offer ALL games as Natal then that review is moronic at best.

Cut the insults. Natal is at least a year from release and with what they've already shown in the driving videos as well as this(READ all of it):

http://xboxhornet.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/project-natal-to-bring-3d-gaming-to-the-xbox-heres-why/

All clues indicate that we will in fact have hardcore games compatible with Natal.

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The Force Unleashed 1345/1345, Lost Odyssey 1100/1100

God, some of you people act like you didn't watch any of the press conferences. Or are just talking stubbornly, one of the two.

But I'll just put in my 2 cents on how I see it.

~Sony before they released PS3 on the market~

"Gee I hope nobody gets mad or alienated because we copied Nintendo and added motion sensitivity to our controllers along with the no-rumble feature!"


~Sony later in the career~

"Okay NOW you guys can have rumble!"


~Sony now in the career~

"Golly gosh does anyone even realize we made our own WiiMote with a glowing ball on the end? PROFIT!!"


Sony just cannot make up their minds, wow. Their presentation when it came to.....well, whatever the Sony "Wiimote" is, was very tech-demo-ish and I felt like I was rushed back in time when 3D graphics were first being integrated into gaming. C'mon, who could've taken that presentation seriously? The graphics and so-called "physics" of interacting with the things onscreen was so laughable it made everything that was shown with Project Natal (including using it with Burnout Paradise) look like a full game and that it was actually fun or had a real purpose.

I don't think that Paint Party will make it onto release or that it'll be nothing more than an Arcade game/tool, but I have to admit Natal impressed me far more than what Nintendo and Sony did. Sony however did have a good conference as it was focused heavily on the PSP and some PS3 games. Nintendo was "Hey guys remember that Wii MotionPlus? Remember Wii Sports Resort? Remember Cammie? Well here they all are AGAIN for this E3 too!".


Besides, Analysts are stupid and have been proven wrong when it comes to games as years have passed by.

 Darth Trethon wrote:

Cut the insults. Natal is at least a year from release and with what they've already shown in the driving videos as well as this(READ all of it):

http://xboxhornet.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/project-natal-to-bring-3d-gaming-to-the-xbox-heres-why/

All clues indicate that we will in fact have hardcore games compatible with Natal.

Oh wow, excellent link. I just read it myself. I didn't come across any of that info before about Natal and now that I learned about it....hohohoohho....I'm excited.

 Mr Hammer Man wrote:

 "Do I really care if I can navigate my Netflix queue without using a controller? I had a very hard time envisioning playing Modern Warfare 3 using Natal. By contrast, I had a very easy time envisioning it (and enjoying it) using Sony's control/motion capture scheme."

"Microsoft appears to be trying to steal casual gamers away from Nintendo, which is a difficult proposition given that you're essentially asking casual gamers to upgrade twice during the cycle (assuming they already own a Wii). In contrast, Sony is squarely targeting the core gamer market, which is what they need to be doing,"

http://www.destructoid.com/analyst-says-sony-s-motion-control-beats-natal-137741.phtml

Meh, dont care bout either. both look too casual.

thats a pretty biased anylyst if you ask me. never even heard of that website

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 Mr Hammer Man wrote:

 "Do I really care if I can navigate my Netflix queue without using a controller? I had a very hard time envisioning playing Modern Warfare 3 using Natal. By contrast, I had a very easy time envisioning it (and enjoying it) using Sony's control/motion capture scheme."

"Microsoft appears to be trying to steal casual gamers away from Nintendo, which is a difficult proposition given that you're essentially asking casual gamers to upgrade twice during the cycle (assuming they already own a Wii). In contrast, Sony is squarely targeting the core gamer market, which is what they need to be doing,"

http://www.destructoid.com/analyst-says-sony-s-motion-control-beats-natal-137741.phtml

Meh, dont care bout either. both look too casual.

And that Nintendo is looked upon as a leader in less violent games and that sells them a ton of units. They are casual and less violent. Perfect for the Oprah watching soccer mom's, they have guilt inside of them and feel well yes it's a videogame put it's the less harmful Nintendo game unit, I can live with myself. There is bascially nothing MS can do in the next 5 years to change that mentality.

And yep who's going to want to fork over $400 right now in the casual market for a new system + games?

 XxLightkunxX wrote:

God, some of you people act like you didn't watch any of the press conferences. Or are just talking stubbornly, one of the two.

But I'll just put in my 2 cents on how I see it.

~Sony before they released PS3 on the market~

"Gee I hope nobody gets mad or alienated because we copied Nintendo and added motion sensitivity to our controllers along with the no-rumble feature!"


~Sony later in the career~

"Okay NOW you guys can have rumble!"


~Sony now in the career~

"Golly gosh does anyone even realize we made our own WiiMote with a glowing ball on the end? PROFIT!!"


Sony just cannot make up their minds, wow. Their presentation when it came to.....well, whatever the Sony "Wiimote" is, was very tech-demo-ish and I felt like I was rushed back in time when 3D graphics were first being integrated into gaming. C'mon, who could've taken that presentation seriously? The graphics and so-called "physics" of interacting with the things onscreen was so laughable it made everything that was shown with Project Natal (including using it with Burnout Paradise) look like a full game and that it was actually fun or had a real purpose.

I don't think that Paint Party will make it onto release or that it'll be nothing more than an Arcade game/tool, but I have to admit Natal impressed me far more than what Nintendo and Sony did. Sony however did have a good conference as it was focused heavily on the PSP and some PS3 games. Nintendo was "Hey guys remember that Wii MotionPlus? Remember Wii Sports Resort? Remember Cammie? Well here they all are AGAIN for this E3 too!".


Besides, Analysts are stupid and have been proven wrong when it comes to games as years have passed by.

if you had actually watched the demo you would have heard that they said the controller he was using was just a tech prototype not what the actual remote is.

Anyway, i think that they both will be cool in there own aspect, personally I am a fan of being able to just plop on my couch after a long day at work and play a game, not have to be moving around and stuff.

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"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

 Ben Kenobi 511 wrote:

 Mr Hammer Man wrote:

 "Do I really care if I can navigate my Netflix queue without using a controller? I had a very hard time envisioning playing Modern Warfare 3 using Natal. By contrast, I had a very easy time envisioning it (and enjoying it) using Sony's control/motion capture scheme."

"Microsoft appears to be trying to steal casual gamers away from Nintendo, which is a difficult proposition given that you're essentially asking casual gamers to upgrade twice during the cycle (assuming they already own a Wii). In contrast, Sony is squarely targeting the core gamer market, which is what they need to be doing,"

http://www.destructoid.com/analyst-says-sony-s-motion-control-beats-natal-137741.phtml

Meh, dont care bout either. both look too casual.

thats a pretty biased anylyst if you ask me. never even heard of that website

Destructoid is one of the biggest independent gaming blogs, behind Kotaku. And you obviously didn't even read the article as if you had you would have seen they linked to CVG as their source.

Do not feed the troll.

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A troll is someone who will state something only with the intention of stirring up controversy.

it may not even have to be movements to control running etc... if there is going to be voice recognition, it could be that you can speak to control in game characters saying 'walk forward', 'run', 'crouch' could work, you could also change weapons using voice commands. might be a problem if your playing in co-op mode though and there are 3 or 4 people shouting at the screen!!

 manaregg wrote:

you could also change weapons using voice commands. might be a problem if your playing in co-op mode though and there are 3 or 4 people shouting at the screen!!

That is a brilliant idea! Instead of tapping Y, just shout 'assault rifle', and Microsoft already said that Natal can recognise and differentiate between voices.

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A troll is someone who will state something only with the intention of stirring up controversy.

 manaregg wrote:

it may not even have to be movements to control running etc... if there is going to be voice recognition, it could be that you can speak to control in game characters saying 'walk forward', 'run', 'crouch' could work, you could also change weapons using voice commands. might be a problem if your playing in co-op mode though and there are 3 or 4 people shouting at the screen!!

Speaking from experience using Virtual Talker on the PC. Saying the movements doesn't work, too slow and you talk to much of the action. Map/Inv/Quests stuff work great, changing weapons is one of those right on the border things, good and bad. For your plan to work, the games will have to be completely reworked and slowed down. That said the 360 had that RTS with voice commands, what did ya'll think of that?

The thing with voice recognition is we don't need a Natal to do any of this today, most with live have a mic, that is all that is needed. Why aren't companies already taking advantage of it? Because demand is low from the players. I love it on the PC to have a handful of things I can program, just makes the rest of the controls more simplified and consistent. Console gamers have balked at this and don't want to listen, developers follow what the players want. Return on investment.

 AnitaPlay wrote:

 manaregg wrote:

it may not even have to be movements to control running etc... if there is going to be voice recognition, it could be that you can speak to control in game characters saying 'walk forward', 'run', 'crouch' could work, you could also change weapons using voice commands. might be a problem if your playing in co-op mode though and there are 3 or 4 people shouting at the screen!!

Speaking from experience using Virtual Talker on the PC. Saying the movements doesn't work, too slow and you talk to much of the action. Map/Inv/Quests stuff work great, changing weapons is one of those right on the border things, good and bad. For your plan to work, the games will have to be completely reworked and slowed down. That said the 360 had that RTS with voice commands, what did ya'll think of that?

The thing with voice recognition is we don't need a Natal to do any of this today, most with live have a mic, that is all that is needed. Why aren't companies already taking advantage of it? Because demand is low from the players. I love it on the PC to have a handful of things I can program, just makes the rest of the controls more simplified and consistent. Console gamers have balked at this and don't want to listen, developers follow what the players want. Return on investment.

Endwar had low ratings, low sales, and is already in the bargain bins. This is the perfect example of why Natal will fail, the Xbox gamers do not want change.

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A troll is someone who will state something only with the intention of stirring up controversy.

I think both controlers will do well.  Saying that Sony's is crap just because its from Sony is stupid.  If MS created the new sticks then they would be great appearantly...  Who knows, many say that the PS3 is failing because its too ahead of its time, maybe Natal will be the same.  Obviously Sony's sticks were using tech demos and prototype hardware- they said so, and so was many of Natal's, they just showed more polish that's all.  All of the Big 3 are trying to keep ahead.  Hell, even Nintendo realeased the Motion Plus which gives the Wii what it was supposed to have in the beginning.  All the companies are copying, um, I mean competing, with each other.  Nintendo had motion control remotes with buggy motion sensing, Sony had full motion sensing (but many devs implented it badly), then Nintendo comes with the Motion Plus.  Then Sony uses the PSeye and reworks the SIXAXIS into their own "remote".  MS then comes out with Natal to one-up the PSeye and remotes all together (which may bite them in the butt, we'll see). It's just business.

I personally see the "PSstick" being more marketable, if Sony decides to actually do advertising for their machine for once.  Natal will do well, IMO, not nessessarily because it is so innovative, but because MS will advertise well, and many kids have 360s as well (not all kids haves Wiis believe it or not) and they'll see people flailing about and thinks its the best thing ever.

Sony's stick won't fail because it's from Sony, it will fail because it's too limited and unmanageable compared to Natal. You can only use one hand to control it....THAT'S IT. And you have to press buttons with the same fingers you use to hold it while swinging it around.....without dropping it. Now can you spell: "complete and utter failure" for me?

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The Force Unleashed 1345/1345, Lost Odyssey 1100/1100

before we start bashing each other on what Product from both sides is the best, lets first wait on what games release out for it, NATAL and Playstation's Motion Controller won't be worth anything if there aren't any good games out for it to play.

What I'm afraid of NATAL will be too casual with not enough games selling for it because of it.

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I'm not expecting Natal to revolutionize anything, I already 100% enjoy my Xbox 360 Experience.

If anything it'll make it a little more enjoyable, but we'll see.

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Who was it that said great things come to great men? Well that CL4P-TP lied to us. There's nothing here but a wasteland.

 Darth Trethon wrote:

Sony's stick won't fail because it's from Sony, it will fail because it's too limited and unmanageable compared to Natal. You can only use one hand to control it....THAT'S IT. And you have to press buttons with the same fingers you use to hold it while swinging it around.....without dropping it. Now can you spell: "complete and utter failure" for me?

so what your saying is the Wii is an utter failure because the same hand you use to hold the remote and nunchuk is the one you have to use to press the buttons? Clearly the Wii is not a failure because it has sold quite well. That is a very fanboy remark, and they will both be good jsut in different ways, personally I am a little more reserved about natal because it is hands off and all vaoice activated...but only time will tell.

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"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

 Helter Macto wrote:

 Darth Trethon wrote:

Sony's stick won't fail because it's from Sony, it will fail because it's too limited and unmanageable compared to Natal. You can only use one hand to control it....THAT'S IT. And you have to press buttons with the same fingers you use to hold it while swinging it around.....without dropping it. Now can you spell: "complete and utter failure" for me?

so what your saying is the Wii is an utter failure because the same hand you use to hold the remote and nunchuk is the one you have to use to press the buttons? Clearly the Wii is not a failure because it has sold quite well. That is a very fanboy remark, and they will both be good jsut in different ways, personally I am a little more reserved about natal because it is hands off and all vaoice activated...but only time will tell.

The wii has a two handed control going on and the wiimote is is shaped more like a remote controller which somewhat facilitates the usage of its buttons. Sony's stick is a very short clearly on handed round stick that you need to wrap your hand around in order to hold it. That is far more limited than even the wiimote. While it may be a bit more precise than the wiimote it is also more difficult to handle and it still only tracks one point.

Natal tracks the entire body to extreme details...it can recognize any individual face and it has voice recognition which enables voice commands. Natal is limitless and Sony's worthless stick is garbage.

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The Force Unleashed 1345/1345, Lost Odyssey 1100/1100

 FLIPTAKU wrote:

before we start bashing each other on what Product from both sides is the best, lets first wait on what games release out for it, NATAL and Playstation's Motion Controller won't be worth anything if there aren't any good games out for it to play.

What I'm afraid of NATAL will be too casual with not enough games selling for it because of it.

There's nothing to fear. The project lead of Natal already stated that there will be some real hardcore games on Natal and the creators of NG love Natal.....and Bungie said that it can definitely work with Halo Reach. You don't get any more hardcore than that.
http://www.gamezine.co.uk/news/formats/xbox360/itagaki-project-natal--completely-awesome--$1302622.htm

In short you'll be able to do all you can do with a controller and TONS more.

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The Force Unleashed 1345/1345, Lost Odyssey 1100/1100

 Darth Trethon wrote:

 Helter Macto wrote:

 Darth Trethon wrote:

Sony's stick won't fail because it's from Sony, it will fail because it's too limited and unmanageable compared to Natal. You can only use one hand to control it....THAT'S IT. And you have to press buttons with the same fingers you use to hold it while swinging it around.....without dropping it. Now can you spell: "complete and utter failure" for me?

so what your saying is the Wii is an utter failure because the same hand you use to hold the remote and nunchuk is the one you have to use to press the buttons? Clearly the Wii is not a failure because it has sold quite well. That is a very fanboy remark, and they will both be good jsut in different ways, personally I am a little more reserved about natal because it is hands off and all vaoice activated...but only time will tell.

The wii has a two handed control going on and the wiimote is is shaped more like a remote controller which somewhat facilitates the usage of its buttons. Sony's stick is a very short clearly on handed round stick that you need to wrap your hand around in order to hold it. That is far more limited than even the wiimote. While it may be a bit more precise than the wiimote it is also more difficult to handle and it still only tracks one point.

Natal tracks the entire body to extreme details...it can recognize any individual face and it has voice recognition which enables voice commands. Natal is limitless and Sony's worthless stick is garbage.

Is there a picture or description on what the PS3 motion controller will look like?  I know that the one that was showed at E3 was just a tech prototype and not what the controller would actually look like.  If there is a picture than I would be interested in seeing it.

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"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

They're releasing it in Spring 2010 did you forget? They don't have much time left to change much before sending it on the production line. The worst part is that the stick they showed at E3 had "failure" written all over it. Surely thy could have thought of a more user friendly shape.

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The Force Unleashed 1345/1345, Lost Odyssey 1100/1100