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Started by Xonatron at 05-25-2009 4:13 PM. Topic has 129 replies.
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   05-25-2009, 4:13 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
My fault, you are right and I misread Xomino's post and I apologize.  We were on the same track all along.  I would edit my post to reflect this but it's timed out. 
M Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF (Dream Build Play Top 20)
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   05-30-2009, 4:58 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
We now have an official Duailty ZF website:
http://dualityzf.com/

Clicking to the forums just brings you to this thread, which will change once we have an official Duailty ZF forum on xbox.com

Clicking the large center Duality ZF logo will take you to our latest trailer, which will play in HD automatically.  Let me know if this trailer plays slow on your system, and, if so, why it plays slow; Is it from lag (slow Internet) or from processing (slow computer).  We have found from testing on gametrailers.com that HD trailers get much higher reviews than SD.

The site contains little information and forwards everyone to xona.com, but it serves as a great entry point to those not familiar with our "tech article" based xona.com site.  (Our xona.com site may very well get a "gaming site" make over, as we predict the majority of our traffic will switch from tech support visiters to gaming fans.)
M Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF (Dream Build Play Top 20)
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   05-30-2009, 6:34 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
I tend to have to allow HD video to completely load to avoid constant pausing every few seconds while it catches up. I'm on an average broadband connection with a 1.65 Mb/s download speed. Even then, I do prefer HD content for detail, so I'd say you made a good choice for the trailer.
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   05-30-2009, 8:36 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
Thank you, Xomino.  Our 2D game tends to suffer more from a low-res trailer than games with more advanced 3D graphics.  I'm not sure why that phenomena exists, but I predict it has something to do with our minds more easily filling in the missing details when the details map onto reality more (ie, 3D photorealistic graphics).  Since our discovery that HD trailers tend to be rated higher, which means that people tend to underestimate our game in SD trailers, we really don't want to ever show the SD versions anymore.

I want to make availabe for download the original 720p source file.  For those who want it now, and who have a vimeo login, you can download it from our video page: http://www.vimeo.com/4403789
M Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF (Dream Build Play Top 20)
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   05-31-2009, 8:09 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
If you are only going to offer HD, you might think of going with the smoothest servers. In my experience YouTube seems to lead the bunch. I often have issues with Vimeo and the others I've used when it comes to HD. I suggest as well though that you consider offering a SD version with some kind of brief disclaimer on the reduction of quality. Quite honestly your game should look good in either, as only fine details get lost in SD.

I'm aware that the 360 is HD, but seriously I wish more developers would pay more attention to SD, since not everyone is using HD. I'm seeing quite a few ignoring the Safety Area as an example. There was at least one CG I almost bought, but did not purchase because even after I informed the developer to use a safety area, they did not bother. This is actually something I was told is checked, is if something looks good on not just one display but all, which includes SD.

Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !
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   05-31-2009, 8:43 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
I regularly test Duality ZF on a 13" SDTV that cuts off all but 84% of the view area.  Everything in Duality ZF is drawn within the safe area of 80%, and the in-game HUD can be changed at run-time (and is saved) to be anywhere from 80% to 100%, to allow it to always be seen, but not be in the way for those with TVs that can display more.  All Duality ZF fonts are large enough to read on this 13" TV.  Microsoft claims 14 points in size is the minimal to work on any TV, but even that's too small for my 13".
J Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF
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   06-01-2009, 1:41 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
SD on your TV while playing our game (which is 480p*) is different from SD on video sharing websites (which is sub-480p quality).  When (most) video sharing websites claim "SD" and "HD", they actually mean lower resolutions of both.  As Jason already explained, our game looks great in SD while playing it on your TV.  But our video footage loses something in the low quality SD online videos, as is evident by the lower scores on GameTrailers.com.  I hope that clarifies that all my SD and HD talk is all about online video sharing, as we already have SD and HD on our actual game well taken care of!

*Fixed the confusing wording as there's no such thing as "true" SD.  SD is 480 resolution, but I bet it can mean a lot of other resolutions.  HD is 720 or higher.  Video sharing sites use 320 or somethign close for SD, which is much too low to showcase our game properly.
M Doucette / Xona Games
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   06-03-2009, 11:38 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
As a beta tester of Duality I thought I'd weigh in on this thread.

Reading it all at once I noted that all the missed projected release dates must have been frustrating for the people interested in this game. I share in your frustration as I've been eager to own and play the final copy myself but I have to tell you the improvements made over the course of all these delays are definitely worth the longer wait. The game is so different than the original version (and so much better). I'm sure if Xona Games could do it again they'd simply say "It'll be done when it's done" :P (I'll advise them to take that approach next time, lol). Anyway, I've played it at all the different stages of its development and it's much improved. I know the people who buy this won't have seen the progression so they won't realize that the extra time is justified but....it is :)

The developers (and myself) have been shooter fans since home consoles were introduced and they're simply unwilling to release it until they're happy with all aspects of it. That's what we shooter fans want. Plus, I know they keep thinking of new things to add/improve so they're being thorough. I can tell you the extra time is paying off.

As far as gameplay I can tell you that the control is what sticks out to me. I bought Raiden Fighters Aces and like it a lot, but a problem that often crops up in shooters is present in that too - the speed of the ship is never quite right. I find each ship either too fast or too slow. Duality gives you one ship with just the right maneuverability and that is welcome. Control issues can really ruin an otherwise great shooter and even my favorites have often lacked in the control department. Duality nails it.
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   06-08-2009, 12:10 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
oh it only there would have been open beta test lol this is actually my most looked forward to arcade game right now and its not even XBLA.. okay this and MvC2
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   06-13-2009, 4:15 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
I appreciate the clarification on the SD and HD. The posts made after mine provided solid information on what was being done with this specific product. I do encourage the developers to create a development changelog if they are making drastic changes or additions. This changelog can easily be included in the final release, even with screenshots, to show the progression. There is no reason why that information has to die on the floor, so to speak.

My only issue with waiting is that shooters are one of the easier games to create. Since this game's mention I've played quite a few in the CGs that impressed me quite a bit and I'd be hard pressed to not compare Duality: ZF to them when it does come out. Taking the time to polish up the product is definitely a good idea and I look forward to checking it out. I'll hold off on any drastic criticism until I can try it for myself, as I'm a cynic on the word of beta testers from previous bad experiences.

Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !
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   06-13-2009, 5:24 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 kagatoASUKA89 wrote:
oh it only there would have been open beta test lol this is actually my most looked forward to arcade game right now and its not even XBLA.. okay this and MvC2
Wow.  Thanks.  We really feel Duality ZF is going to challenge all shmups, even those in XBLA, or on other consoles, or even the arcade ports.  I wish there was a secure way to allow for a bit of beta testing; we could use some.

J Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF
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   06-15-2009, 4:43 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 HugeJuge wrote:
Wow.  Thanks.  We really feel Duality ZF is going to challenge all shmups, even those in XBLA, or on other consoles, or even the arcade ports.  I wish there was a secure way to allow for a bit of beta testing; we could use some.


Well you could beta test on the PC by making a slightly modified version. Just have it require a code and limit those codes to how many beta testers you think you'll need. You give out the codes and hope those people are honest, I mean you 'are' picking them yourself. I can only see this being done on the PC, since the PC does not require the review process, to my knowledge at least.

Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !
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   06-20-2009, 11:14 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
Limit the game to one level and release the cggame. Then everybody who is interested in betatesting the game can sign up for Dream Build Play to receive a trial membership of the Creator's Club, which enables you to play XNA games on the 360.
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   06-20-2009, 9:09 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
You could port it to SilverLight and host it on the web (MS has a free service specifically for hosting SilverLight games). Then you can take it down when the testing period is over.

UberGeekGames.com
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   06-21-2009, 7:41 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
Thanks for the ideas guys.

We need beta testing for all 8 stages for the 3 campaign modes and additionally the 3 bonus modes, so a stage-limited version wouldn't do the trick.  SilverLight will not render fast enough since we're pushing the limits of the Xbox 360 hardware as is.  Even a lot of PCs won't render fast enough due to our usage of the Xenon's ridiculous fill rate that many PC GPUs do not match.  Only testing on a real Xbox 360 will give us the feedback we desire.

Also, we are in the process of revamping the boss system, so the game is in no state to be tested at the moment anyway.  Once this is done, I'll consider giving out the .CC game to people who I trust, and who will not merely play the game, but give the time to detail everything they experience.  Proper beta testing is not an easy thing.  For example, this is the type of feedback I give when beta testing a game:

http://forums.xna.com/forums/p/17499/95827.aspx#95827
http://forums.xna.com/forums/p/17499/95871.aspx#95871
http://forums.xna.com/forums/p/17499/96113.aspx#96113


J Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF
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   06-22-2009, 4:03 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
Do yourself a favor, and among all those people you trust, grab one who is really good at breaking games. I cannot tell you how invaluable those people can be in ironing out glitches and bugs that no one else seems to find. If you don't get one during testing, I guarantee you'll get one in the forums after release, but than he'll be complaining and hurting your sales. Better to get that person now when they can really benefit you.

Incase you're wondering, no I'm not one of those people. I can help you figure out design problems, but I hate finding bugs and glitches. I do know some good people however who seem rediculously prone to finding the most obscure errors. Good luck on your game and I will impatiently wait for it... so I can be overly critical of your design choices !
Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !
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   06-25-2009, 2:18 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 Quanrian wrote:


My only issue with waiting is that shooters are one of the easier games to create. Since this game's mention I've played quite a few in the CGs that impressed me quite a bit and I'd be hard pressed to not compare Duality: ZF to them when it does come out. Taking the time to polish up the product is definitely a good idea and I look forward to checking it out. I'll hold off on any drastic criticism until I can try it for myself, as I'm a cynic on the word of beta testers from previous bad experiences.


I wouldn't really say that is true.  Perhaps on CG this is true.  Most shooters look like they'd fall on a system somewhere inbetween nintendo and atari.  They are crummy, not put together well and uninspiring.

As you can tell from how long its taking XONA to put out Duality that a quality shooter takes time and love.  Compare that to upscale companies like Treasure or Cave (to name a couple) and you can see that enemy placement, formations, level layouts, bosses, attack patterns, bullet patterns, scoring system etc will and do take quite some time.

Zombies everywhere, zombies everywhere, zombies everywhere. They're coming for your brains and it's too late to change.
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   06-25-2009, 4:50 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
Maybe I'm just a different kind of programmer, but most shooters don't take very long to complete development. It mostly comes down to how you designed your shooter, and how experienced your programmer is.

The difference between Duality and almost every other shooter out there, is that it's taking on a quantative approach to shmups.

I would've been happy with a 8 stage shmup, with 1 game mode and grazing. :)
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   06-25-2009, 5:33 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
A lot of things are dependent on experience of the programmer, like the quality and power of the engine, which gives us the ability to do things other games cannot.  Take a look at the screenshot on http://dualityzf.com/ and consider that every bullet you see is individually calculated against thousands of enemies, all at 60fps.  Jason's experience gives us that.

But, development time has little to do with programmer experience.  At least not in the way it is being discussed here.  The things that have affected our development time include:

- unclear goals (we are now implememting ideas that were originally planned in the third Duality release.)
- refactoring of code (same point.)
- inexperience as a professional software developer (same point; and recognize software development is different than software programming; this is our first "professional" mainstream software product; if by "programmer experience" you mean "software development experience", meeting deadlines and whatnot, then we are in agreement!)
- perfectionists (don't read this the wrong way, as Duality ZF will not be perfect; but we tend to be very critical of our own work and refine it a lot.)
- side projects (we are not completely doing doing this full time, though we try to do so in stretches.)
- lack of beta testers (we have friends who help out, and we appreicate it a lot; but a full-time game-breaking beta tester would have helped more than you know; count 96 different ways to play the game, multiple that by a lot of difficulty modes, and try to imagine the amount of beta testing that is required; some "bugs" are well hidden; for example, some bugs only come out when there's shump experts playing along side of shmup newcomers.)
- tweaking (i would like to copy and paste this about a thousands times, as this is the most dominating point against the development time = programmer experience idea. a lot of shmups leave you feeling nobody cared about the game being fun to play; we are happy to say we are not in that camp; we could write a whole article on the work that went into just our scoring system.)
- advanced engine (jason has advanced our engine to handle some pretty ridiculous scenarios, and that type of optimization takes a lot of time; again, this is something a regular shmup does not bother with.)
- only two of us (add all the details: marketing, websites, networking, etc. and if one of us is doing any of that, it's half our team gone. it took a week's work just to put a trailer together for the XNA Roundup podcast, not including researching expensive capture cards needed to record the footage.)

Keep in mine we are just two guys trying to make a game, for the first time!

Our main engine was coded within a week or two.  I would have to ask Jason to verify this, but it was really quick.  So programmer experience gave us a quick shmup engine.  But that's only 5% of the work.  We could have released what was originally "Duality 1" in about 3 or 4 months, but we wanted more.  It is very hard as an artist to release work you know is below your abilities.  And it is very hard to play your own game, and want more of it (like advanced shot patterns), and know other gamers want it, and release it without.  How could we handle such criticism, when we are among the critics ourselves?

And Brass Wolf64 and others, don't take this as a shot against any of you, because we appreciate your support!  The tweaking is just taking a long time to complete.  Take it away, and the game would have been done in a month with nobody sitting here posting about it!
M Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF (Dream Build Play Top 20)
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   06-25-2009, 5:41 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
 Brass Wolf64 wrote:
I would've been happy with a 8 stage shmup, with 1 game mode and grazing. :)


It was too hard not to expand!  Once we put in those game modes, and played them, we could never go back!  I still think the single-stage "survival" will be the fan favorite.
M Doucette / Xona Games
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   06-27-2009, 10:03 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
I still maintain my stance of saving my critical judgement until after I've tried Duality: ZF for myself. From the videos I've seen, well it reminds me largely of Raiden, which is not a bad thing. If I had any criticism, it would just be it may become difficult to decipher enemy bullets if they're not contrasting enough from the player bullets and/or bonus. I am a bit curious about the survival mode, since I am a big arena shooter nut. To clarify, many arena shooters involve some form of survival, be it endless or in increasing waves.
Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !
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   06-27-2009, 7:54 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
A single 8-stage campaign feels shallow compared to our 6 game modes.  The 3 bonus modes are quick-play games and I find myself playing them because I don't often have time for 30 to 60 minutes to go through a campaign.

Development time depends on many things.  Proper programming allows adding content and tweaking to be far easier and faster.  We've left things unchanged because they were too time consuming to change, although we likely would have changed them if the infrastructure allowed it to be easy.  So programming does matter a LOT, since it can be a major roadblock that impedes improvements, and ultimately hinders the final product.

Also some people think once the engine is done, the game is done.  Super Mario Bros 3 was 'done' 4 months before they released it, but they spent months perfecting it.  Little things like level design.  But the game IS level design.  Everyone else is left to ponder why their platformer isn't as well received.  Anyone can make a platformer or shmup engine.  Most do.  They are simple (as long as you stay away from crazy firepower like Duality ZF which requires a significant optimization).  Making the engine into a fun game takes time.  Every issue we see is recorded and dealt with.  This tweaking is a long and detailed process.
J Doucette / Xona Games
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   06-28-2009, 7:08 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF (October 2008 Alpha Demo)
Take your time game is looking better all the time i'd write more but I don't have the time.
been pretty busy outside of gaming this spring and summer season hope to to get back into some deeper gaming this fall and winter. I do have to say that I check up on this game and Nathan Fouts (Weapon of Choice) new game Grapple Buggy frequently.
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   06-28-2009, 7:23 AM
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Duality: ZF Soon?
PS. Oh and fellow gamers some words of advise, be patient!  If developers made their games at their set deadlines there would be a real good chance their games would suck big time, as a veteran gamer I know pushing back a games deadline is almost always a good thing (at least if it's because of tweaks or improvements to the game and not because their company went down and/or was bought out) this is not a new thing to video gaming nor is it unprofessional (not that anybody said it was).
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   07-24-2009, 8:22 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF Soon?
With all the talk i hear from my game developer friends of the inevitable end of the community/indie games section on xbl, i'm just getting anxious to be able to get great games like this before its too late.
allgames.com, deadpixellive
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   07-24-2009, 9:25 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF Soon?
 Jay Irv wrote:
With all the talk i hear from my game developer friends of the inevitable end of the community/indie games section on xbl, i'm just getting anxious to be able to get great games like this before its too late.


Who are these developers?  This inevitable end of Xbox LIVE Indie Games is a myth.  Have you checked out the lastest and greatest news on XNA (link below)?  XNA Game Studio, Creators Club, and Xbox LIVE Indie Games seems to just be getting started from my perspective.
http://creators.xna.com/en-US/news/newfeatures_s14

We appreciate your anxiety towards getting Duality ZF, regardless!  As an update, we are entering Dream Build Play 2009 in under two weeks and will wait to see of any opportunities arise from our entry (may take a month or so), and then we'll release Duality ZF to XBLIG shortly afterwards.
M Doucette / Xona Games
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   08-21-2009, 7:19 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF Soon?
Did you make it into Dream Build? I hope so!!! It's easy to see you guys really know your gaming stuff. Seeing your game evolve so much I sincerely believe that it is worthy of a XBLA release. Good luck.
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   09-11-2009, 1:08 AM
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Re: Duality: ZF Soon?
 Geichz wrote:
Did you make it into Dream Build? I hope so!!! It's easy to see you guys really know your gaming stuff. Seeing your game evolve so much I sincerely believe that it is worthy of a XBLA release. Good luck.


I should have replied much earlier.  We made it into Dream Build Play!  Just squeeked in and made it into the top 20!  Check them all out here:

Dream Build Play 2009 Top 20 (Video Trailers)
http://xona.com/2009/09/05.html

We came 2nd in Canada and 7th* in the world against over 350 entries from over 100 countries.

*Some say the top 20 list is out of order, but the top 6 are the top 6 that made it into PAX so I am believing it to be an ordered list.  The official word is that we will never know for sure and only the top 4 winners have official rankings.
M Doucette / Xona Games
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   09-11-2009, 12:35 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF Soon?
So when is the ETA for Duality? I think this is one of those games I've heard about for longer than I would of expected, before actually being able to try it out. I remain skeptical, just because I'm something a shmup nut, and I can be hyper-critical when someone tackles a genre I'm fond of. From what I've seen, you might just be able to do for shmups in Indy Games, what Streets of Fury did for Beat-em-ups. Good luck, and I look forward to checking out your product once it becomes available!
Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !
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   09-11-2009, 3:26 PM
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Re: Duality: ZF Soon?
 Quanrian wrote:
I remain skeptical, just because I'm something a shmup nut, and I can be hyper-critical when someone tackles a genre I'm fond of.
This would make you a good play tester.  I'd be interested in hearing about your thoughts.

 Quanrian wrote:
...you might just be able to do for shmups in Indy Games, what Streets of Fury did for Beat-em-ups.
Is this good or bad?  I love Streets of Rage style beat-em-ups, but Streets of Fury just didn't do it for me at all.

J Doucette / Xona Games
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