Totally agree with streets of fury.  I thought it was nothing more than a cosmetic "masterpiece" but the play style was horrible.  I was nice in my thread in the forum, but all beat em ups lack a lot on the indy service.  No one knows how to make one...it seems.

I think you will all be pleased with Duality.  I have not played it, but looking at the videos you know its going to be fun.

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Zombies everywhere, zombies everywhere, zombies everywhere. They're coming for your brains and it's too late to change.

 Xonatron wrote:

Dream Build Play 2009 Top 20 (Video Trailers)
http://xona.com/2009/09/05.html

We came 2nd in Canada and 7th* in the world against over 350 entries from over 100 countries.

*Some say the top 20 list is out of order, but the top 6 are the top 6 that made it into PAX so I am believing it to be an ordered list.  The official word is that we will never know for sure and only the top 4 winners have official rankings.

2nd in Canada is pretty sweet & top twenty in the world kicks quantum singularity!! Congratulations guys. I look forward too playing - I don't want to speak too soon but this game seems worth 400MS points easy, i've been watching the videos for awhile and the game looks killer!

 I am wondering if the game will feature an online co-op or not? I was surprised that the new Raiden IV doesn't have online co-op. if you are going to i'll tell the people in the Raiden IV post about your game.

Duality ZF won't have online play.  The intensity and precision required for proper play would be ruined due to lag.  It's the reason all of these hard core shooters don't have online play.  Lag is bad enough in R-Type, making it unplayable at times, and that's a slow game.

I have ideas in the works for ways around this, but it's too much work to make it for Duality ZF.  I promise Duality II will have it, since I'm really looking forward to it.  I may implement my ideas in another, more simple shooter first to get it working right though.

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J Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF [Dream.Build.Play Top 20]

Hey HugeJuge, first off, I've gotta say that Duality ZF looks like a lot of fun and I will be buying it day one for sure. Just one question... how "soon" is soon?

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My Geometry Wars 2 Scores below:

http://card.mygamercard.net/apps/geowars2/k4rn4ge.png

 HugeJuge wrote:

This would make you a good play tester.  I'd be interested in hearing about your thoughts.

I have not been able to afford to get a XNA membership. I'm registered for XNA, but not with a membership. I'll pretty much have to take you on your word along with the beta testers. The problem I've found personally with play testers, is they focus too much on wanting to play the game, than they do on actually finding problems. There is also the problem with the developing fanboyism, where they just accept bad problems as acceptable. I will give it a spin when it comes out though, so you can count on that.

 HugeJuge wrote:

Is this good or bad?  I love Streets of Rage style beat-em-ups, but Streets of Fury just didn't do it for me at all.

To me it's good, but I can see where people might have problems with the color swapping and digital actors. I've played through it on multiple difficulties, using different characters and there really is a good game for your buck. I actually did my weekly pick on it for a podcast I'm on and even the most critical guy on there thought it was quite good, and he does not even like Indy Games. Sorry to be vague there, but yeah, if I'm comparing you to a game I think is good, that means I have high hopes for your game, even though you do not dig the game I'm comparing your game to.

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Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !

I've personally played the game throughout it's development and can attest that the gameplay has gotten much better over time.  You would not believe the details and extra thought that have been put into this game.  It's an amazing example of the great work that can be achieved in a relatively short amount of time.  I'm really looking forward to downloading it as soon as it's available on XBL.

Great job guys!

 DARKO 506 wrote:

I've personally played the game throughout it's development and can attest that the gameplay has gotten much better over time.  You would not believe the details and extra thought that have been put into this game.  It's an amazing example of the great work that can be achieved in a relatively short amount of time.  I'm really looking forward to downloading it as soon as it's available on XBL.

Great job guys!

Can you give me a specific example of a feature or implementation that changed or was added to improve the game?

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Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !

 Quanrian wrote:

Can you give me a specific example of a feature or implementation that changed or was added to improve the game?

He'll have to play the newest version of the game before he can fully answer that question, maybe in a couple weeks time.  I can't wait to see what he thinks of the improvements since he last saw it.

In other news, we are in the news...

CBC TV:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqcrKunPKFs

CBC website:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/09/23/ns-yarmouth-gamers.html

CBC radio (.mp3):
http://xona.com/2009/09/23.html

No worries, though, we are still working on the game... but so lucky that CBC picked us up.

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M Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF (Dream Build Play Top 20)

Please release Duality ZF soon, I think we're all getting a bit impatient :)

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My Geometry Wars 2 Scores below:

http://card.mygamercard.net/apps/geowars2/k4rn4ge.png

 K4rn4ge wrote:

Please release Duality ZF soon, I think we're all getting a bit impatient :)

indeed.

the 1st time i heard about this game, was about a year ago... got angry at the tempative release dates missed and all that... got to cool myself off, because if they are delaying it, it seems to be for the best... but im getting "desperated" to play this one, and it doesnt seems to want to come out!...

HURRY UP GUYS! WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS FOR QUITE A LONG TIME NOW!... i know we've been thru this b4, and i dont wanna start nothing, but sometimes i think it would be better if you just kept quiet and started showing the game a few months ago, and not a year ago.... but oh well.

Well, realistically all games deserve at least a year to be made proper, and I'm not talking about quickly belted out experimental games or arcade games either. If they really want quality and polish to show, it does take a long time to achieve that. I worked on a game for about four years, and I know how time can slip away before you know it. The fact there were major revisions should also be factored in, as that essentially means starting over in many respects. I would expect the game to be out sooner than later though, and would be very suprised if they could not wrap it up in a couple of months or less.

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Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !

I can tell Quanrian has game development experience and knows what he's talking about.  We just beta tested our game this weekend and, as usual, there are lots of details to fix.  Balance is a hard thing to achieve.  But, it will not be long before you have your hands on it... patience!

Think about this:  We placed 7th in Dream Build Play 2009, a contest geared towards innovation, with a true-to-its-roots shmup.  Duality ZF has nothing fundamentally different or ground breaking compared to any other shmup.  We concentrated on gameplay, not innovation, even including our innovations (dual play, 8 fighters, and spread/laser weapon morphing).

This tells me the extra time we spent polishing our gameplay was worth it.  We must have scored high in the "fun factor" and "polish" categories to make up for our lack of innovation.  You will be the judges of that in the end.

And as for the "too much hype too early" idea, we may need more sales than our trailers have views to break even.  If everyone who knows about our game were to buy it, right now, it still may not be enough to call it a success.  Even thought it might seem like overkill to everyone here, the tail end we need has yet to even hear of us.  Our marketing efforts have truly been quite relaxed compared to what we want to do upon release.

I hope it all works out, and I hope the reaction you all have is "it was worth the wait".

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M Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF (Dream Build Play Top 20)

Well, as tough as it is, try not to think about the money. Indy development is not and never has been about the money. The more money you go for, the further you drift from the Indy scene. Look at the roots of Indy in the shareware and freeware scene of the 80's, or even the demo scene on the Amiga. How much money do you think those developers were making? Balance is why it's a good idea to create a standard enemy, something you can derive everything else from. Once you know what you can get away with in terms of a normal enemy, you know how you can abuse things, to make them either harder, or just more unusual.

I'm more of a thick skulled, loud mouthed, nutcase, than a serious developer. I could probably give you a few tips on how to tank a game's design as easily as I could tell you how to make a good game. My point, if there is one, don't be afraid to make mistakes, they're more important than what you do right. The point is not to be perfect, just learn and progress, and if you're serious about being in game design, than find your own marketable attributes. Everyone is making games these days, for everything with a LCD screen, so you really need to establish your own flavor of design, so people know it's you.

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Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !

We have not been thinking about money, or else the game would have been released three times by now to cash in on Indie Games (then Community Games) with a quick shooter, one that was better than any other shooter on XBLCG at the time, too.  But we didn't release as we wanted to make a game we were happy with.  While other devs clogged the drains with their sad efforts and lack of respect for themselves and the service we held off to make a better game.  It was tough to watch, honestly.  I am so glad the ratings system is now in place.  The laws of diminishing returns has kicked in and we are still going.  This shows we are not about money.

And very good points on the process... it is about learning from mistakes.  Duality II will be an interesting game...

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M Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF (Dream Build Play Top 20)

 Remember shoot em' up's are popular (or were popular anyway?) in other countries like Japan for instance, so with indie games going international finally... who knows? I think it's possible the game could generate a decent amount of money!

I'm sure at least Raiden fans will pick it up, since that is what it reminds me of the most. How they feel about the differences between Raiden and Duality: ZF is another thing entirely. Some people like pure clones, others favor innovation. I tend to favor innovation, but I respect that sometimes something is done right the first time, and little has to be changed to make it good. The fact that Indy Game developers seem to have real issue getting shooters right, certainly seems to be in Duality's favor, as I've noted in the past.

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Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !

I'm picking up ZF, just to see all the modes and how they've handled them. For me, it's like a Timesplitters of shmups, so to speak. I'm really kind of ticked that we haven't got it yet though.

The qaulity of shooters on XBLIG up until now seems to be due to the low experience of the developers themselves. I've seen a lot of these shooters having the same exact problems, telling me they haven't played much of a shooter at all. I really am tired of the lack of firepower to match the strength of the enemies in those games.

I don't know if any of my upcoming shooters will hold a candle to Duality, but I assure you they'll be more competent, than what's been offered on the IG service so far.

 Brass Wolf64 wrote:

I don't know if any of my upcoming shooters will hold a candle to Duality, but I assure you they'll be more competent, than what's been offered on the IG service so far.

Or maybe they won't.  I find it odd that no one has tackled a proper shmup other than that one dude from Japan.  But, just because Duality comes out and lets say its as good as it looks, doesnt mean better shoot em ups will come out.  We can only hope, though.

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Zombies everywhere, zombies everywhere, zombies everywhere. They're coming for your brains and it's too late to change.

I think 3 shmups were released from Japan - Crescendo Symphony, X Over and ultimate sacrifice(?). Probably more.

I couldn't play ultimate sacrifice(little explanation on what to to do, and no visual direction).

Crescendo Symphony looked good and had a decent engine, but it became too repetitive too quickly and the enemy waves IMO were unfairly placed.

X Over was decent also, but the waves looked like they were just thrown in there(you can tell there were too many by the fact that the sound channels in the game cut off too often).
And I swear the hit detection is crazy.

IMO, Japan is just like every other region when it came to the quality of shmups on Indie Games- no one so far has managed to even get close to a Cho Ren Sha 68k yet(one of the best free shmups on PC, if not THE best shmup on PC). And I thought Japan would flood us with shmups like that.

I think it's time I started showing my progress so far though. What do you think, TodaysForgotten?

Xonatron, I saw your score on Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved2.
HOW DID YOU DO THAT? I could only get 1.7 million at best.

If things go as planned, Duality will be only the first of many shmups from Xona Games.  I can't make any promises but Duality 2 and a horizontal shmup will eventually be in the works.

As for my GW:RE2 scores, which score do you mean?  Pacifism is my best one.  I have recordings of some of them here:  http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=3F0A6CB71CC3AC9A  (Thanks for the compliments!)

I think a year of beta testing Duality ZF was great practice for Geometry Wars!

(By the way, I'm hating YouTube's new format.  I had to find my own playtest in a search just to find the link above!  Any link to my playlists off my own channel page locks the user to my new channel layout, which seems to do a great job at hiding my content as well as hiding the comments section.)

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M Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF (Dream Build Play Top 20)

Sorry, I meant Deadline specifically. Is that what's supposed to happen, having the entire game follow you around like that? lol

I'm somewhat new to GW, so I didn't expect enemies to just jump you all of a sudden.

 Brass Wolf64 wrote:

I think it's time I started showing my progress so far though. What do you think, TodaysForgotten?

I'm not sure what you mean by that.


Crescendo Symphony as you said was good but repetitive.  It's just my opinion, but i don't think many japanese creators know about the service.  There's no saying that TOUHOU will not come to the service, but will they?

Cho Ren Sha is a cool little game but its so hard to say one is the best.  There are quite a few(slew) of pc shmups.

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Zombies everywhere, zombies everywhere, zombies everywhere. They're coming for your brains and it's too late to change.

 TodaysForgotten wrote:

 Brass Wolf64 wrote:

I think it's time I started showing my progress so far though. What do you think, TodaysForgotten?

I'm not sure what you mean by that.


Crescendo Symphony as you said was good but repetitive.  It's just my opinion, but i don't think many japanese creators know about the service.  There's no saying that TOUHOU will not come to the service, but will they?

Cho Ren Sha is a cool little game but its so hard to say one is the best.  There are quite a few(slew) of pc shmups.

I'd like to enter into evidence of good PC shooters, White Butterfly, which is probably one of my favorite SHMUPS that I have personally come across. Might just be the variety of ships and how they all play so differently. It's an extremely difficult game, but it's definitely not the game's fault, it just requires a lot of skill. Tumiki Fighters was also a pretty kewl shoot-em up by Kenta Cho, which is on the PC. If you have not tried at least something from Cho, than you don't deserve to call yourself a shmup fan! Did I mention Cho has made games with XNA? For research purposes, I submit the link below.

ABA Games / Kenta Cho http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~cs8k-cyu/

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Long Live Indy Games ! I Support Microsoft because they support Indy ! Community Games = Indy Games !

That White Butterfly game looks pretty cool.  It reminds me of another game that I currently can not think of.

I'll add Blue Wish Resurrection.
G-Darius (which of course had its roots in the arcades and other platforms)
Then there is layer section 1 and 2 which is raystorm (which is coming to xbla).
Hell Sinker

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Zombies everywhere, zombies everywhere, zombies everywhere. They're coming for your brains and it's too late to change.

 Quanrian wrote:

If you have not tried at least something from Cho, than you don't deserve to call yourself a shmup fan!

What a silly thing to say, especially since I follow the2bears(http://www.the2bears.com/) like a stray dog. :)

I've played Mazer Mayhem, and rRootage from Kenta. I don't like the randomness of his games, but they're fun.

I've played a few of his games (Cho), and some of them have some potential and cool innovations in them.  He's made a lot of them, that's for sure.  I hope we get to get our hands dirty with a few different styles of shmups, too, after Duality ZF.

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M Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF (Dream Build Play Top 20)

you should check out space phallus if youd like to get your hands dirty (:

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Zombies everywhere, zombies everywhere, zombies everywhere. They're coming for your brains and it's too late to change.

 TodaysForgotten wrote:

you should check out space phallus if youd like to get your hands dirty (:

Wow, I never saw that game before, but I am familiar with Charlies Games.  They match our intensity, for sure!

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M Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF (Dream Build Play Top 20)

 TodaysForgotten wrote:

you should check out space phallus if youd like to get your hands dirty (:

I know space phallus all too well. ;_; That is just nuts(no pun intended).

A quick note, a new screenshot, and a hidden feature release:

Duality ZF has officially been entered into Independent Game Festival 2010, known as IGF.  It's a huge world-wide, all-platform inclusive, indie game contest.  Wish us luck!  And check out a new screenshot of Duality ZF madness:
http://xona.com/2009/11/02.html

The screenshot showcases a new control mode, G-Mode.  Already known control modes in Duality ZF are Solo Play, regular single fighter play, Dual Play, controlling two fighters at once, and Multi-Directional, play as a dual-stick shooter.  And now G-Mode has been revealed...

Make your best guess as to what it is, how you might like it, and what inspired it...

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M Doucette / Xona Games
Duality ZF (Dream Build Play Top 20)