System-wide video bug.

Hey folks, I'd like to bring something to everyone's attention. While I was at my nephew's house setting up his internet connection so that he can game online I stumbled onto a significant bug in this latest Dashboard.

I encourage all of you folks with either a HDMI or Component connection to try this out. Seeing as this bug is a system wide-bug, affecting every single Xbox system in existence, it is a cause for concern. In a more technical term, this is relating to a Reference Level error.

Below are two screenshots to demonstrate the bug. No matter what Reference Levels are set on the Xbox 360, the brightness levels are always reset, either after a game or when powering up. The default setting is the brighter one "Standard" and the darker one is the "Expanded" setting. The console constantly switches between these two when a video source is played, and then back again if playing a game. This bug also effects gaming as well, although it is intermittent, however.

Please excuse the quality and all, I used an archaic iPhone to capture them.

Here's a screenshot of a video that's way too bright, "Standard".
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/dsc03040s.jpg/

Here's the same screenshot that's much darker, "Expanded".
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/dsc03041wf.jpg/

There are other ways of reproducing this bug, but for now I'll just highlight the simpler form in layman's terms.


*Upon booting up your console, go into Video Player, in My Video Apps, under the 'video' tab.

*Select and play any video of your choice but take note of the screen's brightness.

*Now exit the Video Player to get back to the Dashboard, by only pressing the 'B' button.

*Notice how much darker the screen is now?

*Now, once you go back into the Video Player again to resume your video you'll notice how much darker the entire video is than compared to before.


If you've tried the above steps you'd see that it completely messes up the black levels to a degree that picture quality is severely degraded. One is way too bright and another is too dark. The only way of resetting this is to boot up a game or power off and then back on again.

If you run a gaming forum or have connection to the gaming journalists, please by all means refer them to this link. We need to bring this to Microsoft's attention, Thanks!

This was on my nephews console not long after the update was downloaded. As well as that several friends of mine can also reproduce this on their consoles. Pictures taken from my nephews brand new Xbox 360 console, but this issue is wide spread.

It's not effecting my console and I use it a great deal for media streaming.

How is your Xbox connected to your TV?

HDMI cable I bought from a pound shop. Connected to a Sony Bravia 26" HDTV.

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I use my 360 a lot to watch videos (streamed, DVDs and HD-DVDs). I've been in the preview and I've not noticed the video problem you mention during that either.

Perhaps you're not fully aware of it, or perhaps your TV's brightness settings are way too low. Being too low the discrepancy isn't as noticeable. I do know that this is widespread though.

I just went ahead and tested this, I don't see too much of a significant change however I do see the change in brightness.

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Nice job pointing this out.

Thanks! I appreciate you taking the initiative to trying this out. I doubt I'm the first to have noticed it though. There are a lot of respectable videophiles on these forums, so I wouldn't be surprised if they've come across this too. I am the loudest one though, that's for sure. =)

The brightness on my set is at 50 (out of 100) if that makes any difference.

My TV set as well as my nephew's dad's TV set  are both professionally calibrated. Your brightness levels are set very low, and I can confirm this, I tried it on my TV set at a much lower brightness setting. I didn't get as noticeable a difference as before. This doesn't mean that the bug doesn't exist. It just means you're not aware of it because of your disposition.

Most people, and indeed, gamers have their TV's set too low because they don't know any better. Try setting your brightness up to around 60 or so and then try to reproduce this bug again. Doing it afresh from power up. I know for certain that this happens on every console, VoteDC.

You can calibrate your TV set with the basic of settings by doing a search on Google for AVS HD 709. Pick the file that suits your hardware and you should be good to go.

The "Reference Levels" should not interfere or affect the screen's brightness at all if the "Color Space" on the Xbox 360 is set to YCbCr709 HD (used for High definition videos) and yet it does. This technicality is a massive flaw on Microsoft's part, which means that the HDMI and Component outputs are no longer compliant with HDMI standards / High Definition standards.

This affects every single console, whether or not they are connected via HDMI or Component. It just means that those who are not connected through these two means are blissfully unaware of it.

I never knew you could "professionally" calibrate your television/monitor's settings.

I just choose what looks best.

But I guess I do lean towards the brighter and higher contrast end of the spectrum as my eyes can't pick up dark looking things well.

Yeah, it costs and arm and a leg, and they do a host of thing like measure the luminance levels of your TV on a device and calibrate colors using special glasses, to calibrating the grayscales and all. Very technical, almost religious in fact. If you have the money and the tech it's worth it, I suppose.

This is a serious issue and it's driving me crazy.

One reason some people are not seeing this is that the factory settings on most TVs enable variuos contrast boosting features, that always try to push the darkest areas in a picture toward black. While the input video is washed out, this aggressive processing in the TV may obscure it. However, even then the results will be inconsistent.

And two wrongs don't make a right - even if a lot of people are happy with factory settings and aggressive processing on their TVs - for anyone who has experienced an untarnished picture on a properly set up display, it opens up a whole new world where HD can truly appear HD. Problems like this can ruin that experience completely.

From my perspective as an enthusiast and videophile since 25 years, it is unacceptable to see a bug like this and unbecoming of a major company like Microsoft, not the least now that they are focusing so much on providing video content. It's the worst possible time this could have happened.

The irony is stark. When HDMI output was introduced on the Xbox 360 with the first Xbox 360 Elite, it supported only full range RGB. Later, by public demand, they added the color space and reference level options for the very purpose of avoiding issues like this and getting accurate picture reproduction, no matter the setup the Xbox 360 was in. They did the job really well then, and between that and this fall update it all worked as it should.

Now, in an instant, those very same features have broken the output.

So before anybody disregards this as a non-issue - turn off all 'enhancements' on your TV, and you should be able to see what's really going on. And remember that the video levles jump all over the place depending on what you're doing on the Xbox 360, so this issue manifests itself in all sorts of ways.

And if the 'enhancements' on your particular TV mask the issue, remember that two wrongs don't make a right.

Excellent points, Zacabeb, chief among them the default aggressive video processing features of Contrast boosting and enhanced Black Levels. This would explain why VoteDC wasn't able to discern the undesirable effects of this cursed bug.

My theory on what is happening is that there are separate constants for input level mapping (for handling the source) and output level mapping (for the selected color space and reference levels).

The output level mapping seems to be working fine, while the input level constants for for video range and full range get swapped around.

Upon booting the system or a game, or for instance when forcing an exit from the video player app through the guide, it reads the right constants and sets the input levels correctly. But whenever the system is forced to do an on-the-fly change such as within the video player or Zune apps, it reads the wrong constants.

It could simply be a status bit indicating video or full range input that is set or interpreted wrong by some part of the system software.

So then it should be an easy job to locate the faulty code and make sure it reads the right constants for each type of input. Maybe one of the easiest bug fixes in history. A "Hello World" level fix.

Everything points to the cause of the bug being that simple. A single boolean read incorrectly, wreaking havoc with the picture.

This issue also drives me nuts, those that not notice it clearly don't know anything about calibration. Hope it gets fixed. Thanks for taking your time posting this!

Damn, guys I was gonna open a thread about this bug too, I noticed it since the same release day (12/6/11) the HDMI Reference levels are messed up, no matter what level is set the colors and black levels aren't correctly. The blacks for example aren't blacks anymore they are grey and the colors are washed out. If I set it as expanded it looks extremely dark.I haven't change anything on my tv set so I know is a bug related to the latest dashboard update. Also my cousin and some friends I play with called me to tell me about the picture quality. Not only the HDMI are no longer compliant with HDMI standards / High Definition standards, if I set my reference level to Expanded,after reboot it reverts back to Standard.People please test it for yourselves and report back.This significant bug needs to be fixed as soon as possible, it is ruining our video and gaming experience.

voteDC:

It's not effecting my console and I use it a great deal for media streaming.

Same for me. I run through HDMI and I have tested it trying to make this issue pop up messing with various settings on my tv. It does not happen. It is not a system wide issue.

DanteSparda504:

voteDC:

It's not effecting my console and I use it a great deal for media streaming.

Same for me. I run through HDMI and I have tested it trying to make this issue pop up messing with various settings on my tv. It does not happen. It is not a system wide issue.

I am also hooked up through an HDMI cable and this issue does not affect me at all. "ATTENTION EVERYONE!!!! I HAVE SINGLE HANDEDLY DISCOVERED A SYSTEM WIDE BUG!!!" just seems a little hopeful to me.....

I've got the reference level set to Intermediate as that is the one that gives me the best picture to my eyes.

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The brightness on my TV set is enough for me, to be honest I've always thought that others have their own set too high.

VoteDC, try this, keep switching between the Reference Levels, cycle through them. Going from standard to intermediate and expanded. Then go back to Standard again and tell me what each of the setting does. Does the screen just hang in that setting or change accordingly.

I think you might be onto something, Zac. I sure as heck hope it's simple enough for Microsoft to address in a short a time as possible.

I do have to concur with the OP.  I have never touched my video settings after having it calibrated.  But as soon as I updated to the new Dashboard, whenever I watch any video, be it Netflix, Hulu, ESPN, etc, the black levels are messed up.  It's more of a grey color now.  I then opened up netflix on my PS3 and Apple TV, both of them had the same picture as opposed to the XBOX.

I then went around the net and this was confirmed on the AVS Forums also.  Apparently what is happening  is that the new update is messing up the reference levels.  Standard should be what you normally set the levels on, as you would only use intermediate or expanded if you're connected by a VGA cable or if you're using a monitor instead of a TV.  A TV and a monitor both have different levels for black, TV's usually go from 16-235, while PC Monitors go from 0-255).  When you use expanded levels on your xbox and you have a normal HDTV, what the XBOX is essentially doing is changing the range from 16-235 to 0-255, thus it crushes the blacks and you lose out on detail.  It's basically reading the black levels wrong.  And it was also said that during the preview stage for the new dashboard, the bug was mentioned to Microsoft, but I guess it still ended up in the final code.

I was right to surmise that I wasn't the first to have notice this issue. However, I would not have known that this issue made it all the way to the AVS Forums. That's just awesome! Those guys are "in the know" so I'm glad its propagated on their forums. Hopefully enough noise is made to warrant Microsoft's full attention and all. I wouldn't be surprised if some on this thread are from there as well. Here's looking at you, Zac. =)

Sword StyIe:

DanteSparda504:

voteDC:

It's not effecting my console and I use it a great deal for media streaming.

Same for me. I run through HDMI and I have tested it trying to make this issue pop up messing with various settings on my tv. It does not happen. It is not a system wide issue.

I am also hooked up through an HDMI cable and this issue does not affect me at all. "ATTENTION EVERYONE!!!! I HAVE SINGLE HANDEDLY DISCOVERED A SYSTEM WIDE BUG!!!" just seems a little hopeful to me.....

Looks as good as ever on my tv. 50" Samsung plasma.  HDMI all the way!  Netflix also seems more stable, no adjusting picture quality. Watched Super Troopers (awesome) and Pitch Black (awesome), not once did the picture quality adjust. 

This bug is inherent in the system Dashboard software itself. So in effect it is inherent in every single console, that much is correct. As to why some of you cannot reproduce this bug? All of which could be due to a number of things.

Those that cannot reproduce this; it either comes down to you simply not knowing any better (no disrespect implied) or not reproducing the steps correctly, starting fresh from a power on boot up. Since the Black Levels have already being overlayed as opposed to being reset when powering on. Some other reasons could also be due to overly aggressive TV enhancements, or it may just be down to the HDMI cable versions.

I need to ask; who professionally calibrates tv's and what do they charge?  This has caught my interest.

I'm not sure how it works in the other parts of the world, but I suppose you can Google it to see if any are in your local area. It can cost upwards from $200 to $350 (AUD) a little more for projectors though. Currency to currency conversion, it's pretty much around that price in US currency. Not sure how much the street price would actually be though. I got quite a discount cause I got the same fella to do three TV sets, my brothers, a friend's and mine. Perhaps when you find a dealer who does TV calibration you could work out a same kind of deal.

i just tested it and you are absolutely right

so essentially you have to reset your settings every time you boot up?

This issue has been driving me nuts. I've completely switched over to watching videos and Netflix via my PS3 because I can't deal with the washed out colors and black levels. Please fix this Microsoft!

DHG ExtraBigman:

so essentially you have to reset your settings every time you boot up?

No, no, the harsh Black Levels will automatically revert to the "Standard" settings every time you power on your Xbox console or play a game and then exit to the Dashboard. It resets to the "Standard" default setting no matter what your Reference Level is saved as. This is a very peculiar bug. 

Here is the post on the AVS Forums that I've been following where they're noticing the Reference Levels problems also:

www.avsforum.com/.../showthread.php

Sword StyIe:

I am also hooked up through an HDMI cable and this issue does not affect me at all. "ATTENTION EVERYONE!!!! I HAVE SINGLE HANDEDLY DISCOVERED A SYSTEM WIDE BUG!!!" just seems a little hopeful to me.....

Such clever showmanship of indignation and ignorance shown toward a subject which you have absolutely no idea of. Yet, your immaturity is more than enough to compel you to act out in this inappropriate manner. Realize that this immaturity is not in the least bit an insult to me, but rather it reflects badly on you instead, because this issue "exists" -- you just lack the capacity to comprehend it.

Apple Big Mac:

Here is the post on the AVS Forums that I've been following where they're noticing the Reference Levels problems also:

www.avsforum.com/.../showthread.php

Thanks Mac, much appreciated. It's an interesting read. Although, I kinda wished someone at NeoGaf would raise this issue to Microsoft's attention. Anything from there spreads like a wild fire.

Sword StyIe:

DanteSparda504:

voteDC:

It's not effecting my console and I use it a great deal for media streaming.

Same for me. I run through HDMI and I have tested it trying to make this issue pop up messing with various settings on my tv. It does not happen. It is not a system wide issue.

I am also hooked up through an HDMI cable and this issue does not affect me at all. "ATTENTION EVERYONE!!!! I HAVE SINGLE HANDEDLY DISCOVERED A SYSTEM WIDE BUG!!!" just seems a little hopeful to me.....

If you really think it doesn't affect you, go to this site:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

Download the MP4 calibration videos.  Play the main calibration video and the first pattern is a black level test pattern.  If the 360's output is correct, all the bars under 16 should blend into the background, not be visible, but you should still be able to see the bar at 17 flashing.  The new dashboard displays black all the way down to the 2 bar when set to Standard reference level in system settings, whereas it correctly showed black as 16 in the previous dashboard.  If you change to intermediate or extended, none of the bars above 16 are visible anymore, meaning your 360 is crushing blacks, making video overly dark.

So it IS a system wide issue with the 360 itself... assuming you have your television correctly adjusted to NTSC standards.  Regardless, it was digitally correct in the previous dashboard and is not now.

For anyone else asking about calibration, those videos at that link are a good start.  While I wouldn't recommend using your 360 to adjust your display until after this bug is fixed, if you have a PS3 or Blu-ray player, there are links there to download a disc you can pop into your player with 1080p test patterns to calibrate your set's black and white levels and sharpness control (though you would need a blue color filter to properly adjust color).

The only issue I have noticed is that for whatever reason Video's streamed through TVersity now suffer image quality issues, but the same video streamed via Windows media player does not.

TheReverendSlim:

So it IS a system wide issue with the 360 itself... assuming you have your television correctly adjusted to NTSC standards.  

Why would I since I live in the UK which is a region which primarily uses PAL.

voteDC:

TheReverendSlim:

So it IS a system wide issue with the 360 itself... assuming you have your television correctly adjusted to NTSC standards.  

Why would I since I live in the UK which is a region which primarily uses PAL.

You're correct in that I was being too specific to U.S. users.  However, even HD resolutions in PAL territories use 16-235 for video black/white levels, so it still affects you. Analog NTSC broadcast TV is 10IRE higher in black level than analog PAL (or 54mv on an analog feed, whereas PAL uses the video blanking level as black), but that doesn't apply to HD resolutions, DVD or digital video, which use the same standard (16-235) in both PAL and NTSC.  So there's no discrepancy.  You can still use the aforementioned calibration files to check your display.

Your Bravia and modern TV's can handle those two signals with ease. So that shouldn't be a hassle for you to try out the calibration data. I'm in a PAL region too.  

If you're adjusting your television by eye or using the default settings, you may not notice this issue simply because your television is likely set incorrectly based on existing video standards.  And like the vast majority of consumers, you may love the way it looks... but wrong is still wrong.  Movies are created using calibrated monitors to a set standard, and for you to properly display what the director and cinematographer intended you to see, your display has to be set to those same standards.

If you have a PS3 or Blu-ray player, use the test patterns linked above to adjust your display so that everything below 16 is one solid black with no flashing bars but with the bar at 17 barely visible.  It's okay to leave white above 235 unless you're trying to maximize the contrast ratio of your display, though some Blu-ray discs have white highlights above 235.  The danger of pushing white level to clipping at 235 is that you may also clip the color channels (which extend above 235).  My Epson 8500UB (which accepts both PAL and NTSC so I can play PAL DVDs with my Oppo BDP-83) is calibrated using an EyeOne Display LT colorimeter so that the color channels don't clip until above 240 and white peaks right at 255, since I have contrast to spare.  After you've correctly calibrated your set's black and white level, go back to your 360 and play the same test pattern from AVS.  If things were working correctly on the 360, it would match up to your other sources (i.e. black at 16).  With the new dashboard, it doesn't...  though it did on the previous dashboard.

For this device to remain compliant with existing video standards, Standard reference level MUST comply with the 16-235 video levels for television output and Extended must comply with the 0-255 standard (for computer monitors).  If it doesn't, then it won't match your other video sources (cable/satellite, Blu-ray, other game consoles, etc.).  Therefore, this IS a system-wide issue across all regions.

Hmm if the brightness and contrast on my Projector are set to the way I like it and not to some standard I don't care about, that doesn't make it wrong, because it is right for me. Just like all the games that have you set your game so you can barely see some image, well guess what I like actually seeing the detail the designers put into the games so I usually set it brighter than recommended. Does that make it wrong? No, again it makes it right for me.